Proof That God Does Not Exist

Read the following 2 posts in FULL, and only then comment. If this doesn't convince you, then even death and not seeing God afterwards won't convince you either.. NOTHING will! Trust me these are mind blowing.

Also please explain why you think God exists. ** EDITlease make your posts somewhat intelligent, rather than "GOD IS REAL BECAUSE MY MOMMY SAID SO"

Yes, its alot to read but trust me, its worth it

Creator God = gone!

THE CREATOR GOD STRIKES OUT!

Every possible form which energy and/or matter can take, must be in use and exists today in time and space. Why? Because we are always in the middle of Eternity. Eternity is a two way street. Eternity runs both ways don't you know. These forms will include universes about which we know nothing. It will include undiscovered transformations of energy/matter, and any other undiscovered condition, forms or expressions which energy and/or matter may take.

When we speak of a God here, we are only speaking of that concept fostered upon us by the Christian religion which claims that a God is the creator of all that is. They claim a God was preexistent. That is, before there was anything, there was a God.

By using this Christian definition, we are eliminating the many varied little concepts of a God. Most of those activities, miracles and controversies (if they are true) could also be attributed to some super race of long lived aliens, and they need not be classified as gods. Aliens could easily possess powers, technologies and abilities which seem god like to our infant science. But, they are only advancements which some day even we may possess. So we are only dealing with the Christian concept of a creator God.

To say that before anything existed, a God existed, is an oxymoron. Such a statement can neither be understood nor conceived by our minds. It can not possibly be true and here is why. If a God existed, then that God is something. And something is not nothing. So the universe could not have possibly come from nothing. It must have come from something. Thom's law explains that.

Thom's Law
"Nothing can not produce something. If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there would STILL be nothing."

So even a God (which is something) could not be produced by nothing. Therefore, if a God came into being, he must have come out of something. The only "something" which exists now and has always existed is that of energy and/or matter.

So, any God (or anything else) must be, or must have been, the product of something. Everything which is, must be a product of energy and/or matter.

Now that is strike one against the Christians who say that a God preexisted nothing. Or, as some say, a God coexisted with nothing. That is, while there was nothing, there was also a God. (Unless, of course, you wish to claim that God IS nothing. I could accept that claim, but then I would not be here would I? Proof enough. I am here.) So, you can not have a God (which is something) and say that before him, there was nothing. You must either start with a God, which is something (and came from something) or you must start with nothing. For sure, you can not have it both ways. If there is a God, he is something and something can not come out of nothing.

Strike two says, since there was something which must have predated a God, God could not have created everything. He could not have created himself if he was not himself to start with. God himself/herself/it would have to be developed from something that was NOT a God. God is claimed to have knowledge and character. Knowledge and character MUST be developed. It can not be decreed. It can not be magically waved into existence. Knowledge and character is a PRODUCT of life and living. It is a product of making wise and foolish choices. It is a product of growth.

Did a God have the knowledge to create or make a universe? Where did he develop that knowledge? It is inconceivable that God simply sneezed and the universe came into being. I don't think even the Christians would believe that.

To have the knowledge to create, or even to make a universe, God must have had some prior experience, some development, some trials and errors in how and why this worked and that did not. Also, the Christians attribute lots of wonderful attributes to their God. God is all good. God is all great. God is all just. God is all wise. God is all knowing. God is everywhere. God is all powerful, and so forth.

That is, the Christians give God a good, moral and powerful character. Now character can not be developed in a vacuum. Character must be developed by trial and error. Character must be developed by finding out what is good and what works. To do this one must also find out what is bad and does not work. Character must always answer the question, "Why?" in order to develop. Character is a growth process.

Therefore, there must have been other individuals and intelligences with whom God could interact in order to develop a good character. There must be at least a family of them. Therefore, God is not alone. So, other intelligence demands some type of setting in which they could interact. They must have a place, a home of sorts. So we now must allow God to have at least a family, a home and a setting, or a place of operating, in order to develop his character. So that is strike two against a creator God being by HIMSELF, and at the same time having both a good character and ultimate science knowledge. God could not decree himself a good character or vast scientific knowledge. He would not know what was good or what to decree. He must have developed that knowledge.

In addition to this, God talked! How could a God language develop without other like beings with whom to communicate. Come on now! Think about it!

Next, we come to strike three. If there was something out of which God came, then there was already material available to make a universe. That is, God could not possibly have created the universe. However, God could have MADE the universe. That is, he could have taken the material which was available and MADE the universe out of that.
The Christian information about a creation comes from a mistranslation of the Jewish Testament. The Jewish text reads:

"In beginning, the GODS MADE the heaven and the earth."

The Christians CHANGED that to read:

"In THE beginning, GOD CREATED the heaven and the earth."
In other words, the concept of a creation stems from a MISTRANSLATION - from a LIE. Think about that!

Either the God of the Old Testament made a mistake and used the word "made" when he should have used the word "create" in telling us about a beginning, or the New Testament God made a mistake and used the word "create" instead of the word "made" to describe a beginning. In other words, one of these Gods is lying to us. Which God is lying to us?

Since the Old Testament God told his tale first and then the New Testament God plagiarized his work, I must assume the New Testament God is the real liar in this case. Of course, if you do not wish to give the New Testament God the credit for this lie, you could give that credit to the writers of the holy book.

There are those Christians who say (in spite of Thom's law) that God did come out of nothing. I have some questions. Is God supposed to be greater than the universe? The Christians say, "Yes." Then why didn't NOTHING create something smaller or less significant than a God in its first effort at creation? Why didn't NOTHING do something simple first? How would NOTHING have the wisdom to make something more important and more complex than itself, more important and complex than the whole universe? Why didn't NOTHING make the universe first and then make a God?

How did NOTHING make a God when it had not yet discovered how to make the hydrogen atom? The effort of making a God would have challenged all the resources of NOTHING, which resources of course is zero. Hydrogen atoms would not have strained the efforts, knowledge and power of NOTHING nearly as much as making something greater than the universe.

Did you know that believers in all ages have created gods? Today believers can create too! They make lots of gods using only the twenty six letters of the English alphabet.

Now it is a fact, you can not put a strain on zero. You can multiply it. You can divide it. You can add it. You can kick zero around, abuse it, smash it, cast it aside and guess what? It is still a perfect zero. So I do here by declare ZERO to be the only perfect number in the universe. Nothing you can do to it changes the value of ZERO. It is always and for ever - ZERO. You just can not get anything out of ZERO except ZERO. And NOTHING is ZERO. And ZERO is NOTHING. A God did not and COULD NOT come out of ZERO.

So, the Christian concept of a creator God goes down on a called strike three. From now on, the creator God must take his seat on the bench next to the rest of the religious gods who struck out. A God could not have preexisted that from which he came. He could not create himself. He could not create the universe without vast knowledge which he must have learned by trial and error. He could not have learned without other intelligence with whom to interact. He could not have created the universe from nothing when material (energy/matter) was already available from which to make it. The creator God strikes out.

**Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and is NOT my work

 

MAKER GOD = gone!

THE MAKER GOD IS THROWN OUT

We have moved from the impossible Christian oxymoron concept of a (creator) God, to a Jewish (maker) God concept which is more in keeping with our comprehension and understanding. But is this new God view valid? Did any God make the universe? Did the maker God sneeze and the universe came into being? Did he remark in his God language (to others), "Well, by Me! Look at THAT! What have I wrought? I think I will name it, THE UNIVERSE." No, my friends, I think not.

So, we must again face the need of vast knowledge. And to this we must also add PURPOSE! What would be the purpose of a God making a universe? What possibly COULD be the purpose? Did God really need and want a toy to play with? What do the Jews and Christians have to say about this?

Now, both the Jews and the Christians tell us that God does not need anything or anyone to make him satisfied. We are told that God is self sufficient. He is happy with himself. God is altogether perfect. We are told God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yet, according to the writers of the holy book, we find God was NOT satisfied. He was not self sufficient, nor happy. God was lonesome, so he made at least a son and a ghost to keep him company. He also made his chess and game opponent - the Devil (Lucifer). It seems God DID need a toy to play with, so he made the universe and plays with it daily (according to the believers). Could it be that the universe and especially the earth, is the game board upon which God and the Devil play their games? Do they congratulate each other on wise moves? Do they wager on the outcome of the games? Does God ever lose? What kind of game would it be if you created an opponent who always loses? Even a God would not cheat like that - would he?

But God does not face the Devil alone. No! He has lots of advice on what moves to make. This advice is rendered daily (sometimes five times a day) by those who have appointed themselves as "God Advisors." These advisors call themselves BELIEVERS and proceed to advise and tell God what to do about life, the world and the universe. They call this strategic advise making - PRAYER.

Daily, and even hourly, God is bathed in the fervent prayers of the faithful believers. God seems to depend on these daily instructions and prayers to help him outline his vague work and play schedule. Without these constant instructions on how to conduct his business, play his games and run his universe, God would be at a loss to know if he should heal Aunt Mary or not. Without this advise (according to the believers), God would not know which team to let win the game (or the boxing match) (or the war).

Believers tell us God depends upon these polls from the snow white, granite minds to tell him what to do. Do the Christians really think God is the president of a democracy and daily waits for a consensus of public opinion before he knows what to do? Is it not possible God could do good, right and just things on his own without the guidance of the Christians and Jews? Am I getting this right?

These snow white, granite minds believe that God must have a consensus of public opinion, or else, he might just do the wrong thing and let Aunt Mary die. Or worst of all, God might just do nothing at all. But keep in mind, God is not lazy. He just needs some guidance. So God does stay busy because he gets a multitude of assignments. And let us not forget the many chores God must run for the granite minds.

There is a problem though. All of God's earthly advisors have less than a hundred years experience in the profession of "God Advisor" and certainly no more as "Divine Chore Supervisor". Now, this worries me! I am afraid they will misinform God. When God finds out he has been betrayed and led astray by his advisors on earth, he might decide to get rid of them (called the rapture). He might even clean the game board and in so doing decide to rid the earth of ALL earthlings (called apocalypse). We are told he almost did this once in the past (called the flood). Let us not provoke him into doing that again. I plead with all of you advisors, PLEASE! Let God run the world by himself and play his games without any advise from you! Let him make his own mistakes so we will not ALL be held liable.

About thirty years ago, God and I worked out an agreement. I promised I would let God be his own God and do his own thing, and God decided to let me be my own man and do my own thing. We are both very happy with the arrangement - especially God.

Why don't you make a similar agreement? It frees your mind and takes away the fear of the future. I live an honest life and let the future do with me as it sees fit. Whether you know it or not, the same will happen to you. Besides, a good God must love people who search for truth, who learn to use their minds which nature has graciously given us. Did you know any good and just God loves Atheists? Did you know a just God must be very disappointed in those who refuse to pursue truth, who refuse to look at BOTH sides of these important matters? Could it be that God will switch the name plates of hell and heaven?

There is something else here which bothers me. The snow white, granite minds have assumed divine prerogative and appointed themselves spies, scouts and monitors FOR God. They purpose to seek out and identify all the enemies of God. They then inform God who are his enemies. When God's justice is not swift and harsh on these newly invented enemies, the granite minds assume the divine prerogative of judge, jury and executioner. These Christians, who have classified Atheists as God's worst enemies, are at a loss why so many smart people become Atheists and yet live moral lives which are the envy of Christians.

The granite minds think God's patience is a vice. They do! They are afraid God will not be as expeditious and harsh in his judgment as they will. They do not trust God's justice. They do not trust his opinion, nor do they trust God to do his own work! So they do God's work.

Thus, we have doctors shot, clinics burned, political lies told, honest people harassed, religious lies told, prohibitions enacted, social lies told on minorities, boycotts of business, crusades against political and religious figures, ethnic cleansing, wars of conquest and more lies told. These granite minds tell us they are God's people, his front line troops. They tell us they have the truth and we should believe the same myths they do. We are told we should act like they do.

I am sorry granite minds. I am not that evil. I am not that religious. I have moral standards which keep me from harming my neighbor just because he is different from me. I have morals which keep me from believing that any God could be as cruel, base and juvenile as the granite minds insists he is. I have morals which keep me from telling lies to others and insisting that the lies are the truth. If there is a god, I know he must be JUST. And a just God could not cast a person into torment for all eternity simply because he could not believe the unbelievable, the immoral and the impossible.

No Just or Good God ever thirsted for sheep's blood, man's blood, nor did he thirst for the blood of his own kin. That is BARBARIC! That is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

According to the believers, God whips up rain at man's request. He removes mountains, throws lightening bolts, breathes hurricanes into destructive existence, stomps earthquakes into being, guides tornados along their destructive paths, and he moves comets, asteroids and stars around. Many other unbelievable and immoral actions are attributed to God by believers who claim God dabbles into the daily affairs of men and nations.

Of course, according to the believers, God does this to impress and punish non believers. He is so bent on attracting the attention of non believers, he is willing to destroy the just together with the unjust, the good with the bad. He does this in order to punish the non believers for their sin of Honest Doubt and Logical Thinking. Some say he sent the earthquake to San Francisco because of some immorality of a few citizens in that place. And he plans to do the same to Orlando, Florida. You remember they let some gay people have a parade. The snow white granite minds informed us of this terrible, terrible sin. They then instructed God to get on with the destruction. Didn't you notice the fires and hurricanes last year. God was punishing the whole state of Florida to get back at Orlando for letting gays march for about an hour.

The whole concept of a God making and running the universe boils down to this question. Is the universe religious? Is it a toy of the Almighty? Does the universe run at the whim and arbitration of a maker God? Can mere man tell God what to do about the Iraqis or the Irish? Does this Maker God send the winning numbers when we pray? Does the Almighty run the chores and errands of the granite minds? No! Certainly not!

The universe is natural and runs by the inherent laws of matter, energy and nature.

Yes it does!

There is no creator god and there is no maker god!

**Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and the work is NOT mine!

 

This is as close to actual "proof" that you can get, it's a logical deduction. Does it seem illogical to anyone? Or more importantly, did anyone believe in God for some reason and after reading this is having second thoughts? Anyone? Now this post isn't to start a flame war with believers, just some really logical explanation for lack of God's existance. You're welcome to refute this if you can.. but not by screaming something absurd... take out a statement and then refute it one piece at a time!

 

God did not come from nothing. Coming from nothing breaks Thom's law. Therefore God came from something.
The something that God came from is God himself.
In other words, God is TIME, and since he controls time, his future self has a capability of reproducing himself and sending himself back in time.
This might be a twisted description, but it is supposed to mean nobody says that God comes from nothing. There is nothing wrong with God in that sense, because God did not come from nothing. In fact, there is nothing before God, so Nothing could not exist before God.
There are those christians who say god did come out of nothing. There are also some christians that disagree with that and don't side with that. You are simply refuting those specific christians' point of views. They make up a minority, and they cannot be representative of the belief in God. just like i could say there are those atheists who say the universe came out of nothing. There are also those atheists who say stuff. That doesn't represent all of those that believe in the nonexistence of God.

Hebrew is the language of God. (God made it himself so that he could communicate with his subjects) Latin and Greek are man-made languages, which contain inperfections. So different translations are not God's fault, but man's fault.
You may say that Hebrew isn't perfect, but that's only because it has been distorted by thousands of years of human inperfection.

God does not need material to make the universe. The material came from him, were a part of him, and are his play toys (or creations). Therefore, he let them run loose and not be a part of him anymore. Even though it might break some laws of conservation, you must understand that God is SUPERNATURAL. He doesn't have to follow any laws that He did not make. Laws of conservation are not made by HIM, but by Nature.

The supernatural does exist. For example, information itself is supernatural. It has no physical form, but can be stored physically and passed physically. Grey matter, Paper, water, disks, and sound have nothing in common. Yet their information could all be in common. The scientific community cannot give a rational response to "What is information?" without begging the question. It all comes down to "What are numbers?". Numbers are supernatural. Numbers themselves don't represent anything, but when put in front of a label, it represents physical items. Numbers themselves have no physical form, and are not natural, so they are supernatural.

The Jewish and Christian Gods, from a Christian point of view, are not two different Gods. The Common God spoke with his Word in his language to Make or Create the world (the definition of Make and create are very common). He communicated with the Hebrews, who were his people. Because humans are imperfect and deserved punishment, he sent a part of him to hopefully correct that and pay for the justice.


The Lord is not advised by prayer. Prayer simply asks and requests from him, however he already knew what he was going to do. It does not affect him in any way, but it affects the believers into strengthening the relationship with God.

The universe IS the Lord's toy. It is imperfect (because it separated from God), and human prayer cannot tell God what to do. God already decided the results. Humans just play it out. Prayer is to benefit the Humans, not affect God.

Your "Proof" has some faults in it, but is a good try. However, it does not convince me of the nonexistence of God. The decision to keep the belief in God was started when i responded to your claim that Christians claim God came out of nothing.

 

Ante, there was no need for such a long post. Can you please edit your post. Anyways, thanks for your opinion

 

whoo rah!

 

that doesnt prove anything but what you think is right thats just as well as me saying the hindu's god isnt real because he couldnt have came from anything unless my god made it
this has been argued over for years and years and it will be argued over for years and years and so on and so forth you will never convince anybody of what you think is true actualy is true and this doesnt even matter to me because i belive in my god and im not religious so im not gona freak out over it

 

sry i didnt realize it was so long i simply typed in the quick post box til i was done.

 

Ante, can you edit it to be shorter?

 

for fuck's sake, if God exists, then He exists outside of time. being created means you were created at an earlier time, but if God exists outside time, he has "always been" (I use this term loosely because that implies that He has been here for infinite time).

 

Infinity is a concept, a theory. It is not "achieved" or "reached and surpassed" simply because it doesn't exist as a number. It just means "no end". So, here's my logical argument for why time doesn't exist, and therefore there is no creator God. First let's look at what our perception of time at the moment is, and then I'll show you why it's not real. Bare with me, this should be enlightening! Please read this without bias/pre-conceptions/belief interfering, be objective

What we know of time: Past/Present/Future. Yet we know the future doesn't exist YET, not until it comes into the present. The past also doesn't exist, it is only a memory. If you wipe out the memory, the past ceases to exist entirely. So the only thing that TRULY exists SHOULD be the present! Well, things actually jump from the nonexistant future, into the nonexistant past, and NEVER touch the present. You can zoom in as much as you want into this "present" but even if you zoom in for infinity, you'll always see the future jumping into the past, there is no moment called "present" that exists. What we think is "the present" is only the IMMEDIATE past, the part that JUST NOW skipped from future into the past. Ok so that means nothing exists, well it doesn't if you think of linear time as we do.

Also, because you can't have something out of NOTHING, there was ALWAYS something. That means where we are now is supposedly in the middle of infinity of time, that goes infinitely into the past and into the future. There is no end to everything, as there was no beginning. There's only ONE problem with that. If that is true, then God can NEVER create anything even if he does exist. Why? Because he'd first have to wait for infinity of TIME before he could create something. Remember, we have infinity of time behind us in our past. But you CANNOT surpass infinity and THEN do something. Infinity is theoretical, it is NEVER reached. It just means NEVER ENDS. That means, since we are STILL part of that same infinity, God would STILL BE WAITING to create ANYTHING because we still haven't surpassed infinity, we're only in the middle somewhere. God would be waiting for exactly infinity of time, before creating ANYTHING. That means he'd never create anything. Bam! God strikes out! Ask me for any clarifications if need be.

This also means that time isn't real, because before anyone created anything they'd have to wait infinity of time to do so. You can't skip ahead, because time is linear. You can only go forward/backward. You can't SKIP sections. I'm talking about all-powerful beings also. If you CAN skip sections, that means tiem never existed in the first place and it's an illusion imposed on humans. Ok this is long enough. Let me know what you think.

You may argue that because God isn't human, he is not bound by our limitations. What I would say is, if God can SKIP infinity, that means it was NEVER infinity, but was in fact, FINITE! But we know for FACT that everything DOES exist for infinity, and God in religion should be infinity, no? Because you cannot have something out of nothing, therefore something always was! Hmm I think I'm repeating myself here

 

im confused by many of the claims in this.
IE.
Thom's Law
"Nothing can not produce something. If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing."

Law of Conservation of Mass
"In a chemical reaction, the mass of the products equals the mass of the reactants."

If these laws are true they would support each other.
and in theory the universe is still expanding then wouldn't something have to come from nothing? seeing that there can't be a chemical reaction that enabled it to expand.
the law of the conservation of mass is the only thing in this that has been proven to be true. making there only two situations of the out come Thom's law is false or the universe is stagnant. if in the universe things are always moving, planets are rotating, and galaxies are moving wouldn't one think that the universe is expanding making it dynamic not static.

i don't see how Thom's Law is correct in an universe that is always expanding and when chemical reactions can only produce the same amount of product as reactants you are given.

 

Thom’s Law does not require faith. It is not a theory. It is not like the claim for a Deity that can easily be disproved as soon as any attributes are applied to the definition of “God.” Thom’s Law is self-evident. One cannot add any attributes to it, nor take any thing away. It cannot be modified. It has great utility stemming from its simple observation that “Nothing” cannot produce something. Thom’s Law is not ambiguous as is the Law of Gravity where many differences and opinions are hotly debated and experimented on. In fact, Thom’s Law may be the only scientific law that can never be changed, modified or improved on.
Thom’s Law opens the door to the possibility that there is no such thing as a single event (a singularity). This opens the door to the possibility that space contains hundreds if not millions of universes. Everything in nature seems to have a life span and I conclude so too does universes have a life span (a birth, a life, a death - and a rebirth.)

You can have fun with Thom’s Law. Try to improve on it or disprove it. Try to ignore it. Try to belittle it because I do not have a degree in physics. Utilize Thom’s Law in your thinking.

 

that's all very well and good, yet for the purposes of living a normal life without second-guessing all of our actions and beliefs, the present DOES exist, because if you stop time, you are at the "present".

if I put a handful of sand into a box, and apply some rules to within the box, the rules do not apply to the insertion of the sand. God created the physical rules, He is outside them.

again, time is a constraint of the universe. if we accept that God created the universe, then God is outside of time.

they wouldn't have to wait for infinity to pass if they are all-powerful.

also, if you're all powerful, that means you CAN skip sections. you're ALL-powerful.

no, God can skip infinity if He wants to. He's God.

remember my analogy to the sand in the box?

 

Proof that he does:

Go look at a mirror. Period.

 

To make it a little easier, Ill answer this question:

1) Where did everything come from then?

Answer: Energy couldnt've come from anywhere, therefore, what's the difference between energy and God? If it didn't come from nowhere, how did it come from a SEPARATE entity called God? (Separate from the energy that is, unless he IS this energy, in which case you're just calling energy GOD, and in this sense, sure he exists).

2) God does Exist. Pray for yourself to find out.

Answer:

posted on 3-4-2004 @ 11:11 AM (ID:478145) single this post

quote: Originally posted by AD5673
God does exist. Pray to him and find out. If you have problems aks him to help you out. He will thats how you know that he exists. I prayed to him a lot of times and he has helped me.

Or so you assume. Your "desire" that whatever was the turnout was GOD, doesn't mean that is what it was. Somehow he doesn't seem to help out all those other people praying to be saved, like the dying in Iraq who're praying to God to make the Americans leave. The Palestinians who want the Jews to stop their genocide campaign against them. The Native Americans who prayed to save them from the BRITISH who invaded and slaughtered them to build this country. The Jews who prayed to be saved from Hitler.

Somehow God likes you more than everybody else on this planet. Or perhaps this is a delusion you've created for yourself, since the only reason you have for saying that God did anything at all, is because you WANT it to be God.

 

dork, this is the same thing as always and unstead of saying god exists you say aliens do which is just plain stupid

 

Im gonna go for a little.. Dont feel to well.

Oh and so no one brings anything of such up, Ill add this

I never said life after death doesn't exist or ANYTHING else of the sort. The ONLY thing I refute is God, the almighty entity that created everything there is. That is logically refutable to be FALSE and silly and a great lie. Everything else about souls/afterlife etc is a big *unknown* and not logically provable either way. Only the creator has no business existing

 

Im not saying aliens exist. I dont feel like arguing for a little. Snooze time

 

glad to see this is turning into a somewhat intelligent thread