Is anyone on these forums a Lawyer?

My cousin had an incident today. Once I know the facts, I'll update this post write what happened. It has something to do with shoplifting I think...

In the meantime, is anyone here a lawyer or good at law?

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I've had a lot of experience with the law including a shoplifting charge back when I was 16. I'll probably be able to tell you whatever you need to know better than anyone else on here. I also have a lawyer who I talk to regularly and I can ask him if it's something I don't know. Just let me know when you have the details.

 

Age at time of incident and country?

 

OK so, my 19 yr old cousin (the retard) was caught for shoplifting at Macys and charged with a petty theft misdemeanor. He got caught shoplifting at a Macy's store in California with $59 worth of clothes. (2 LP security officers in ordinary clothing grabbed him the second he walked out the door) He was taken to the back of the Macy's by the Loss Prevention officers which then made him sign a paper saying he was not to enter their store or any other Macys stores for 3 years. He was also given a civil demand for $425. The police were called, and he did get fingerprinted and some kind of citation/court date but he was not detained.

Since he was cooperative and was this was his first timethough, the officer said he didnt have to worry (only if he did it again) that it would just be a "slap on the wrist" and he could have it taken off his record somehow.

The questions that he emailed me are:
1) Was what the officer said true? Could he really have something like this expunged from his record? If so, how?
2) What happens if he does enter another Macys?
3) What if he has no way of paying the $425? Hes in school and is already in debt bc of the loans.

 

Yes this is true, but he's still going to have to do a program to get it expunged. It could consist of anything from probation to community service. I actually did this when I was arrested for shoplifting. It was also my first offense and I was a minor at the time. I had to complete 3 months of probation, 40 hours community service, and 6 weeks of classes. After I did all this and turned in everything to my probation officer, it was expunged.

They tell you that they can grab you on sight, but it's very unlikely that will ever happen. Most likely, nothing will happen. It's possible they have a picture of him in the Macys he went to, but it's not like someone is going to recognize him right when he walks in the door. I wouldn't worry about going into another Macys, but he shouldn't go back to the same one for a couple months just to be safe.

He could do jail time instead of paying the fine. I've done it a couple times. It's really not a big deal. It won't be long either. Maybe a couple weeks, which he will only have to serve half for good behavior. He probably won't need to though considering his situation. It's possible that if he has a good story that the judge will give him more time to pay it. If so, then he'll be set another court date and expected to pay it then. Since it's his first offense and he's in school, then it's very possible. Everything is up to the judge. He should go in there looking nice, talk politely, and do everything he can to convince him. If a judge thinks they can trust you, then it's likely they will try and work with you some.

I would recommend that he at least see a lawyer. I would schedule an appointment and talk to him before he hands over a check. A lawyer can make big a difference a lot of the time. They can also reschedule his court date for up to a year if needed. They definitely aren't cheap though and will probably charge $500-$1500 for a shoplifting offense.

 

Wow you dont know how much you've helped!

Thanks for literally everything you have said. Ill be sure to forward this on to him.

 

No problem. Glad I could help. Feel free to ask me anything else if he has anymore questions.

Also sorry I misread a little of what you said. A civil demand is actually completely separate from the court and is issued by the company. They usually don't tell you right then though. Normally they will send you a letter and you'll be required to pay whatever fee they give within a month the letter is dated. You can send in a check/money order to the address on the letter or you can call them up and pay with a debit or credit card. Unfortunately there isn't anything he can do to avoid paying it, but they do allow you to pay smaller monthly portions until it's paid off, so I'm sure he can handle that. If he doesn't pay, then they can take legal action and he'll be set another court date. If he doesn't show up, then a warrant will be issued for his arrest.

Did they give him anything that says when the fine must be paid by along with a case number? If not, then he should expect a letter in the next month or 2. He shouldn't have to worry about it until then. As for everything else, he isn't going to know exactly until he goes to court. My guess is that he'll be allowed a diversion program to keep his record clean and will be given 40 hours community service with some classes and possibly some probation. Each monthly probation visit costs $30-50 and it's about the same for each class too. Also he should have the opportunity to use his First Offenders if he wants. I'm not positive if California has a First Offenders Act though, so he should look into it if he's at all interested. You only get one, so he should use his wisely. If there is any chance of him getting in trouble again later on, then it might be better to save it for a more serious offense.

 

If he got his fingerprints taken and has this on his record doesn't that mean they already took legal action? In which case what is the point in paying the civil demand? I thought civil demands were to avoid getting the police involved in the first place.

Also
http://sfcriminallawyer.blogspot.ca/2010/01/shoplifting-civil-demand-letters.html

 

The US law against this is very extreme compared to the UK one, if this was in the UK they store security would no doubt just take the clothes back and make you sign a paper to say you won't enter the store again or they will charge you with trespassing. No police are ever involved, I just think its because they are lazy. Even if you are arrested you would only spend like 3-4 hours in the station and then released no doubt, maybe with a small 50 pounds fine or something.

 

From what I read, it seems that his fingerprints were taken by the company as a way to identify him. It's basically like giving a signature. He wasn't taken to jail and fingerprinted there, so he wasn't processed and put into the system. A civil demand is separate and doesn't affect anything that is done by the court. When I was arrested, I didn't even get a civil demand letter until a month after I went to court. It also won't be on his record until he is prosecuted. If the judge offers him a diversion program and he completes everything, then the charge will be expunged and won't show up on his record. If he fails to complete it or violates his probation in any way, then it will.

I actually still have a copy of a civil demand letter.

 

Hey thanks for the replies guys. My cousin was truly grateful when I shared with him your guys' responses.

A few things to clarify: He was fingerprinted (and I guess put in the system) at a holding station, but then released because he was cooperative--the fingerprints were not taken by the LP at Macys. He did get a civil demand for $425, but doesnt know if he should ignore it or pay.

He also asked me to ask a couple more questions on here.
1) At the court (the set date is like Jan 14) where he will see the judge, would it be possible for him to have a public appointed lawyer present? Or should he already be searching for some sort of private attorney? Or is it just 1 on 1 with the judge?

2) Apparently if he enters any other Macy's stores, he will be arrested for trespassing. What if hes is accompanied by someone else (say his mother)--not just by himself again. What if he actually plans on purchasing something this time or returning something?

3) He was scared in the heat of the moment, so he gave out his social security number to the LP team. However, he lied about his address and where he lived though to both the LP and the police (when the officer took him to the holding facility) once things started to cool down in his head. He didnt want a letter to go out to his real address and have one of his parents get it in the mail while hes at school or something. He'd rather have his offense be in his record permanently than to have either of his parents find out what happened btw. Was this a mistake? Should he have told them that he didnt know his SS number? Also, is there a way or like a site where he can look up his own SS and read up on the offense he committed?

 

I'm a little confused by this. By holding station, do you mean the back room inside of the Macys or the holding area inside the jail? Was he arrested, taken to jail, processed, and then released on bail?

He needs to contact his local public defender's office. They have certain requirements that he must meet to qualify for one. He really shouldn't go in there without some kind of representation. A 1 on 1 with a judge can turn out very badly sometimes. Some judges are complete assholes and throw a harsh punishment at anyone. Some of them aren't bad either, but it's not something he needs to risk. A private attorney is certainly better, but it's not cheap. I would first talk to a public defender or a private attorney and see what they have to say before he spends any money on one. For what to expect in court, he probably won't even have to talk to the judge. His attorney will do most if not all of the talking, unless the judge asks him a question personally. In fact, he might not even have to go in front of a judge. It's possible that his attorney will work out a deal (such as a diversion program to keep his record clean) before hand and if the judge accepts it, then he'll be free to leave before his name is called.

He really doesn't need to worry about entering any other Macys. The only one that he could have a problem with is the one that he stole from. Even then, the chances of something happening to him are close to nothing. They always tell you that they can detain you and have you arrested, but they are required to say that. Of course it's best to avoid going into the same Macys just to be safe, but he really shouldn't worry about it if he does, especially if he's with a parent.

Giving his SSN doesn't make any difference. They usually don't even ask for it. He's in the system either way. He doesn't need to worry about lying to the police either. It's already done with and it's not going to come up again in court, so he doesn't have to worry about getting charged with anything for it. He made the right choice to give a different address. If he had given his parent's, then they would definitely find out. Whenever you get arrested, you get a shitload of letters from attorneys offering to represent you. He'll also probably get a civil demand letter from Macys if he wasn't given one at the time. As of right now, there is nothing on his record. There won't be until he's prosecuted in court, unless he can do a diversion program instead to keep it off.

 

If he gave his SSN and real name it is not hard to track his real address down if they ever even choose to do so (the police that is). He gave his SSN to the company too?

 

I got the idea that he gave his current school address instead of the one on his license (his parent's), not necessarily a fake one. If so, then they are going to use the address he told them instead of the one already in the system as long as it's actually real. I'm still kind of confused whether or not he was actually taken to jail and processed. I've never heard of a holding station, other than the holding area/cell inside the jail. If he was, then they don't need his SSN to find his address since it's already in the system anyways and they can just look it up using his name.

 

What he told me was it was like holding/processing station (this was different from the one he was taken to in the back of the Macys). After he was arrested and had his rights read to him, he went in a police car to some sort of small holding facility. The handcuffs were taken off and he was told to just sit while the officer did some stuff on a computer. He said the room contained a fingerprint scanner, a few jail cells, and like a camera wall (slightly different from the mugshot camera you see on TV with the length, height, etc marked in white). I think it was a holding area, idk it all seems crazy to me, but thats what I understood when he told me.


And what about the $425 Civil Demand? If he chooses not to pay, will something appear on his SSN record? Can he be arrested for not paying (say if he gets pulled over for speeding and the officer looks up his bg) Or is that only if he doesnt show in court? He's thinking about ignoring both the Civil Demand amount and the court date/appearance.

@Dimethyl --"As of right now, there is nothing on his record. There won't be until he's prosecuted in court, unless he can do a diversion program instead to keep it off."

^This helps a lot man!

 

I thought you had to be a minor to get your record expunged Dim? I could be wrong.

He can be arrested for not paying the civil demand I am pretty sure. I believe that falls under contempt of court and most places it can usually be up to like 30 days in jail. They would issue a warrant for his arrest, but Dim probably has more experience in this than I do. I only have legal knowledge of it and not actually practical knowledge.

Why don't get just get a real job and not be a hoodrat and shoplift? That would be a lot easier than having to go through all this hell.

 

I ask him the SAME question every time I talk to him. His lame, broken record player excuse is that he's just starting out in college. I do think that he's learned from his mistake this time, however, and he wouldn't want to go through his hell again.

 

You don't have to be a minor, but there are other requirements you have to meet. I know you can only expunge misdemeanors, unless you get a 2nd offense for the same thing.

Also a warrant won't be issued right away if you don't pay the civil demand. If it's not paid within 30 days, then they can hire a local counsel and take you to court to get the full amount allowed by the statute. If he doesn't show up, then a warrant will be issued for his arrest.

Hmm seems kind of strange, but it sounds to me that he was arrested and taken to jail. The only thing that I don't get is that he didn't have to pay bail.

If he doesn't pay the civil demand, then he'll get a letter in the mail saying that they want to take him to court. A date will be set and only if he doesn't show up will a warrant be issued. Only then will something show up on his record. He definitely shouldn't ignore it, especially since he's in school. All he'd be doing is postponing the inevitable and will only end up costing him more money in the end. He'd also be ruining any chance he has of getting it expunged and will end up getting a much harsher punishment. Nothing pisses a judge off more than not showing up for court. It's much better to just get everything over with. A warrant is not something that he wants to deal with. He may be able to avoid it for some time, but it will definitely catch up to him. I ran from a warrant for nearly 2 years and it was a pain in the ass. I couldn't get a job and I was constantly paranoid every time I left the house. Shit, I was even scared of the cops breaking down my door. I spent a lot of the time moving around living with friends to avoid getting caught. I did have a few drug charges at the time though, so I had more to worry about. The police normally won't come looking for you if it's not a serious offense or for skipping bail, but it's not impossible. I eventually got pulled over for a broken tail light and ended up spending 2 months in county for an outstanding warrant. I didn't even not show up for a court date, but missed a probation visit, so it also counted as a probation violation.

 

^That is indeed not a very smart thing to do.

If he does not pay the Civil Demand, there will be warnings sent to his home as well as a warrant for his arrest if those warnings are ignored. Not appearing at court on due date can also have a warrant for your arrest send out and the police will in fact appear in front of his doorstep. Also, the Civil Demand that they've requested can be kicked up due to late payment so it's best to pay it up. If he can't then he should at least contact them letting them know of his situation.

Getting a record depends on the Judge (e.g. if you have a faggot Judge, you're bound to get your shit kicked. But that's unlikely as majority of Judges who handle theft cases are the ones who take it easy < My sister is a lawyer and told me this).
Considering your cousin is still in school/college and apparently already in debt, the Judge will give him a warning only as the law does NOT intend to ruin a teenagers future by leaving a criminal record profile. And that is ONLY if he appears in court. If he doesn't show up, then it's likely he will receive a minor record.

Note: The above response is based in Australia. So not sure if US and AU laws and consequences are the same.

 

Thanks again for the responses.

So from what I've gathered, to answer his other questions, I will tell him that it would be wise to both pay the Civil Demand (possibly work something out like a payment plan etc) even though they dont have his real address and also attend the court hearing.