Does God exist?

God gives everyone the chance to think and decide for themselves. He let eve decide to eat the forbidden fruit, even though he could have stopped her. We are his children, and he wants us to learn and grow, and he wants all of us to be good people. But he is not going to control us and force us to

 

Uhm, last i checked the specific god you're talking about killed more people ( thus not giving them chance to, as you put it "learn and grow" ) than Satan himself.

check and mate to that argument.

edit: Also, an omnipotent being who knows completely of this reality including the past, present, and future then nullifies your concept of free will completely. When i describe free will I love to use a quote by the late Christopher Hitchens that goes something like this- I have an ironic viewpoint on free will which is this, we have free will because we have no choice. See, this is better than my opponents claim because he says we have free will because the boss insists it's that way!

 

This is the sfa section, atleast give an example on when god killed anyone?

God flooded the world to try and rid the world of the wicked people.
By the way, saying god killed more people than satan is admitting that both exist.

God gives us free will as a chance to learn, its as simple as that. God did not make hitler kill the jews, god did not make that guy just shoot up everyone in colorado, that was the peoples choice. God also gives us the free will to do something about things like that and protect everyone.

 

Yeah, where and when was the last time you checked?

Not the best example. The boss "insisting" that you have free will isn't really the case here. Justin is implying is that God made free will to be an inherent trait in man. Either way you don't have a choice.

 

If your 5 year old child had a gun and started shooting people, you wouldn't stop him? You would let him grow because he is a good person?

If there is more than one god neither can be omnipotent and thus they may not be able to stop evil and thus the problem of evil goes away essentially. Well, partially.

 

I would stop him. That is what God intended, for us to be able to take care of ourselves so he doesn't have to. He wants us to be self sufficient and not rely on him for everything.

 

let me start to explain why i believe in god and see where you and i get get out of this suf. I put my life in gods hands, almost like fate. I believe everything happens for a reason and that reason is what God wants me to do. If god wanted me to get hit by a car tomorrow and die then that is up to him. If god wanted me to be saved from that speeding car that would have killed me then he would have had someone jump out and save me. simple as that. I believe in God because i was born and raised catholic. I do not have a problem with others views but my oppinion on him existing is strong.

Let me share a story with you. 2 years ago i had a rough encounter with drugs and emotional issues. That night was worse then ever and things would have only gotten uglier. In that instant where things turned from shit to rockbottom, i was contacted by not one but multiple people just asking how life was and that ultimately was the thing that saved my life. I believe that god didnt want to take me just yet. I was younge and stupid then and He had better plans for me.

Another incident where i believe he had a strong impact on my life. Just earlier this year i got back into drugs, I was with the wrong crowed and giving in to the pressure of highschool. I did drugs this one night in january and there was no tip off to my parents that i did such a thing. The next morning my mom happened to go clean my room spotless when she just happened to look into a secret drawer that i have in which i had the contents of an empty bag. Now this bag was nothing. But my mom questioned me to death and ultimately i gave in. Once again i believe this was the working of God.

Now these were just two personal experiences in which i believe God played a role in.

Now onto the debating part.
Evidence is not something you can easily come up with for this subject. If you would like to feel the works of God i beg you to go to a church (I dont care if you are apart of that church or not) but get down on your knees in front of the alter and just pray. Pray for something in your life that you would like to get better or pray to God for someone in your life to change in any way possible. God works wonders in many ways. If you believe and talk to him then he will answer your prayers. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually that prayer will be answered. You do not have to believe in the same god that I do, you can believe in any God you would like but there is definately a higher power among us.

Now let me get into something that might get very very confusing.
What created us as people? Do you honestly believe that giant space rocks collided and made earth and that one day monkey's were magically made that evolved into humans? We are very advanced species and we were built in an image of God (this i have no proof of other then biblical material) and we produced us to acheive and to fail just so we can become as advanced as we are today.

I read somewhere once and you might have already read this too but long story short the college professor asked his students to prove to him that God was good because he said God only made evil. The student asked him if there was a such thing as cold, the professor obviously said yes, in which the student countered with "false, cold is non existant, cold is just the absence of heat." The professor was a little dazed but he realized that the student was correct. Then the student said there was no such thing as evil, evil was simply just an absense of God in ones life.

This story is very strong in my oppinion and i believe every word of it. God is able to see past the evil in us and brings the best out of us.

I have more to add to this but my brain is done putting out information right now, give me more time to think and after i read your response to this then i will respond again

 

Are those 2 billion people starving to death in Africa also the work of God? You have attributed many positive experiences to God, and it is fantastic that they've happened. You should though be accepting the negative experiences people have had from God, are you willing to do this?

Empirical evidence has shown that prayers do not work, at least there is no difference in the outcome between people who pray, and people who do not pray. What do you have to say about that?

There is actually a lot of empirical evidence to support both rocks colliding to create Earth, and Evolution. The latter has an incredible amount of evidence to support it. Why do you not like empirical evidence? How else do you gain information about the world?

That prose is beautiful rhetoric, but that is all it is. Firstly, to claim cold is non-existent is empirically correct, but semantically misleading. Cold is an abstraction referring to a certain range of heat in the kelvin system and is relative from person to person. In addition, Good and Evil are not entities that exist empirically, to compare it to heat or light is a false analogy.

Mustn't be much good in most starving African kids.

Please respond to mine!

I just like to say one thing. The question does God exist is an epistemological question. Since it is so, we obviously need to use an epistemological method to answer it (We need a method of gaining the knowledge). If Empirical evidence is an unacceptable method, if Reason is an insufficient evidence, what makes Faith the best method?

In addition, can we apply Faith as an epistemology to other areas of our life?

 

So we are gods children but he doesn't care about us? If he cared he would guide us and stop us from doing bad things. If he doesn't do that he doesn't love us and is a psychopath.

 

You are correct, i did not touch base on anything negative about God in that post.
In the bible, satan tempted eve into eating the forbidden fruit. Therefor there is evil in this world. Every day a countless number of people do die in the world. I never thought about it the way you stated it but you are correct.

I like the fact that you can play devils advocate (no pun intended) because it really makes me think more in depth and brings me back to earth meaning im not always right.

Empirical evidence cannot be possibly used to show that prayers do not work, inless these studies on prayers have gone through a random populations lifetime the data cannot possibly be correct. (may have been confusing to understand sorry about that) But IMO these studies wernt given enough time. Because after X amount of time only some people were able to say "yes my prayers were answered" simply because they wernt given a life time chance for them to be answered.

What possibly proves this information on evidence and collision or even the big band theory correct? nothing proved that this for sure happened so its only what we can believe based on what we have experienced and heard.

I agree they should not be compared and that this can be shot down in many different ways. It was simply just something i read and took a liking to. But there is nothing to prove that there is even a seperation of good and evil in the world.

I will attempt to.

Stumped me on this one, how ever give me time and i will attepmt my explination on why faith is the best method to prove that God is in existance.

Can you put this in simpliar terms please? your vocabulary is far beyond the reach of mine and even with the use of the internet comprehension is simply beyond me at this moment.

Suf, what even proves that some of our actions are even evil?

 

We are gods children, and he does care about us.
He does guide us the right way, through the bible. Not everyone guides the bible though, or takes it to heart, so that is their fault.

Again, their are worse things than dying. You are looking at dying as the ultimate problem, and if god lets that happen he is evil. People die everyday, he doesn't let us live forever, does that make him evil also?
After you spend whatever time you have on earth, you get judged. If you lived a good, kind hearted life you go to heaven and are in bliss forever. If you lived a wicked, cruel life, you go to hell, and get terrible, wicked things done to you in return.

 

Would it be fair to say that there is more evil in this world than good?

Not really. From memory, the studies where done with people with a heart condition (something like that). They prayed that nothing would go wrong, they would get better (I forget the fine details, but it was something like that). There is thus a time-limit on their prayer. It is impossible for them to have their prayers answered in the future because they no longer have the condition they prayed for. However, is it fair to conclude that prayers do not work in the short-term?

Also, just because your prayers have seemingly been answered does not mean God did it, correct? If I prayed to graduate from High School in the top 2%, and it happened, that does not mean God was my guiding force, rather, it is a combination of my genetic propensity to do well academically, and work I put into class.

In addition, you said that "Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually that prayer will be answered.". This is however simply not true. To claim such means that even the logically impossible can happen, or the laws of physics can be broken. If I prayed that my crop would take 1 day to grow after I plant them, I can wait till I die, it will never happen due to the maximal photosynthetic rate. If I pray to be able to draw a square circle, it will never happen because it is a logical contradiction. If however I pray that my family member survives from cancer, it could happen. But, how do we know this is a result of prayer, or not since people who are atheist, and have no people praying from them still survive from cancer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System

I'm not well versed in either, but I have some knowledge in the Big Bang.

The expansion of the universe, Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation, and the theory itself predicts certain quantities of elements to form, namely 75% hydrogen and 24% helium. We have observational evidence that this is true. I'm sure there is more.

I should make one thing clear. I do not claim that these theories must be absolutely true. They could very well be false, and proven to be so in the future. That however does not negate their validity in the present, because there is so much evidence in support of these theories.

Good and evil are abstractions, they are man-made. Whether or not a separation exists is kind of irrelevant because since they are abstractions they're relative in everyone's mind. Just like Cold and Hot. Some people find 10 degrees celsius cold. Ask people on Mount Everest, and you might get a different story.

Alright.

This works with the question before.

Epistemology more or less means how we gain knowledge, or the method we use to gain knowledge. Let us assume that you've given a good reason that Faith can be used to gain knowledge. Can we then use Faith and gain knowledge in other areas of life apart from religious questions.

 

So what about the 90,000 to 240,000 years before the Bible was written in which people lived? What about other major religions? Mormonism is right, the Catholic church is wrong. How do I know that? Faith.

The Bible says that if a woman is not a virgin when she marries she must be stoned. If you know of any non-virgins that you did not stone you are going against god's word and you will go to hell. The Bible says that if a woman is raped the rapist must pay her father about $700 worth of silver and marry her. The Bible says no one has seen god's face. It also says one person has seen god's face. The bible is taken literally, until society progresses to a point where it is suddenly obvious that a particular verse, like 1 Timothy 2:12, is metaphor.

Also. If humans have free will, god is not omniscient. It also means there is no plan. It means your life is meaningless. If you know you will get to heaven when you die, why are you being selfish? Get off the internet. Stop living a rich lifestyle. You will go to hell if you are rich. Jesus said so. Donate your life to helping others if you really believe that heaven exists.

 

Why can't there be more than one omnipotent being? Can you elaborate on the underlined part?



(sorry to come into your discussions malak, but there are a few things I'd like to ask)

Could faith and science be used in tandem? Using faith to strengthen one's drive to learn about the Universe and nature, and likewise, using science as a means of searching for what we believe to be "the truth" in our faith.

Right, so that would mean that anyone who prays for logical contradictions to happen, isn't going to have their prayers answered. I would think any intelligent creator would keep in mind the laws by which his creations are bound when tending to their prayers.

The fundamental basis of prayer (from the Christian perspective at least) is that one needs unrequited faith in their God if they wish for their prayers to be answered. A person who denies the existence of a God shouldn't expect Him to have their prayers as a priority, should they ever decide to test God.

 

I voted No.
Where was he when my aunt died?
Where was he when my best friend and bro died?
And don't you dare give me this bullshit that it was their time...
Cause no it wasn't, they had so much more to live for.

 

Don't be sorry!

Ultimately, one cannot use faith as their method of obtaining knowledge. However, If one wishes to use faith as an inspiration, or motivation to obtain knowledge by other means (science, reason), then there isn't anything wrong with that from an epistemologic point of view.

Well. I used this argument to show why all ones prayers cannot be answered. However, I'd like to contest that an intelligent creator would keep in mind the laws..., I think some Christians would hold the opposite view when we take into consideration their literalistic belief in many stories of the bible.

Be that as it may, prayer itself must be questioned. Is there any evidence to support that prayer works? If the evidence is anecdotal (personal experience), then how do you know it was indeed prayer that caused what you were praying for to happen.

For example, If a kid prayed for a bike for Christmas, and their parents knew of this, was the kids prayer answered by God who inspired the parents to buy their kid a bike, or was it the parents who just wanted to make their child happy? If it is the former, then some free-will we have, but if it is the latter, then this quintessentially demonstrates how people mistakenly attribute that their prayers have been answered by God.

 

If the illuminati is god. yes

Why? google illuminati.

Real talk below.

Also.

Everything has to have a start. But lets say the start is going backwards in something "outa this world" Let's say everything you were taught was a lie. What if the universe isn't the start of it all. There had to be something before the universe? Everything had to be made from something. How can something come from nothing? That is where the truth is. Now logically speaking. We are made from billions of years of evolution of bacteria, dirt, dust air you name it. Sounds right and logical. We can say that logically all the planets were made over billions of years from explosions and atoms. But how can this explosion come from nothing? If we use logic it all makes sense. Logically speaking a lot of things are fake.

We can't prove ghosts are real. we have no real proof. nothing at all besides movies. We can't prove nothing out of this world. Everything is straight forward and logically done. Can we make nothing from something? How can we make nothing from something? If we go to the start. We Logically can't come from nothing but we are basing life on starting in the middle. What if we are going back in time? Now let's say what we do now. Effects what comes before us? How? If nothing comes from something. Something can come after nothing? Wrong.

So now we are at this. Universe>nothing>us>something>after>before us>nothing again>to effect the universe?

Why would we suspect the universe to come first then nothing? how can nothing make the universe? what if the universe made nothing? Now let's look at what could possible be the cause of making nothing -> to making everything.

How could we possible find a way to do nothing. and expect something to happen?

Now you may say bacteria/atoms and all that were heating up to make an explosion. But them require something to even exsist in the first place. How is this all possible? Let's try to think of an unknown time. We will call this the UUU TIME.

The uuu time is before the universe before the way it was made. Now we believe that the universe is the start. But that isn't possible. Logically we are going farther and farther back. In this time there is no living things. Nothing seems to exsist. Everything is just there. But it's not. How can this place exsist? It came from an unknown thing in the UUU time. This thing is formed by nothing. It lives off nothing. It's just there and to our knowledge, does nothing.

Now this is the only thing there. it is a small thing. But when it gets older it grows and forms 1 atom every billion years. After billions and billions of years. Atoms start to evolve. Eventually these atoms Explode and expand. they duplicate at enourmous rates. They cover everything in their path. Everything is lite up. In the process nothing is destroyed. The thing that made the atoms is still alive. What we live in can never be destroyed.

Life is endless. We are not alone. You can say we're lucky to be here. In the universe, it takes a lot to have suitable life. We were made from billions of years of life evolving over time.

atoms made us. We live our life wondering if we are alone on this planet. But think. We logically were made from atoms and bacteria over billions of years. The reason other planets around us don't have life like us. The planets can't support life. Now across the universe there has to be another planet like earth. There has to be life evolving that is alive to this day. It is hard to believe anyone can be more advanced than us. compared to everything we have. That could be true. I'm sure other places around the universe have tons of different living styles. If they are advanced enough and heading into what we are as humans. Or they have billions of years to go. They probably don't have anything like we do. I'm sure one day they will get advanced and be able to live life like us. Or for all we know. They could be far more advanced than us. Know we are here. See us, watching us. But are simply to far away to be able to do anything.

The human is built to want to discover and learn new things. knowing how everything was created. It makes you understand that there could be trillions of humans throughout the universe.

God is fake he could not make what took 100s of billions of years of evolution. God is more of a religion. We were raised our taught to believe in things that others believe in.

Just look at how many religions there are throughout the world. You won't convince or change someones mind on god. If it is their religion. But if you learn how everything is made and what can be made from nothing. Or use logic to breakdown life 1 step at a time you can see. Use logic on earth. Tell me a way logic will fail you. Show me something god-like. Or out of this world.

 

My belief is that god exists. God works in everyone's lives. There is meaning behind everything that happens in your life and that is the way god molds you. God won't directly influence one's life but is present in the events that occur in one's life. For example, the death of a family member can put someone on the intended path god has for you. Of course its impossible to scientifically prove that he exists, thats what faith is for.

 

Basically if there is two omnipotent beings one could simply destroy the other. They also could simple undo everything the other does. If they are working perfectly against one another then neither of them has any power. If they are working perfectly together they are essentially a single being. If they are in the middle they are also essentially one being as one will stop the other from some things but not others and same for the other one meaning both have some influence over the world as the other lets them. So essentially the only way for them to be truly omnipotent is for them to actually be one being and for all intensive purposes you could look at them as one.

As for the underlined bit, if there is a perfectly just god and a perfectly evil god and both are omnipotent then they are both powerless as I stated above, assuming one doesn't simply make the other one cease to exist. This solves the problem of evil as the good god is no longer able to stop evil so we can't say he is bad for not stopping something he has no power over.

I'm not going to even address this. If you do not believe that morality exists you really should be locked up for life.

He won't influence your life but he will kill your family member to guide you? Either:

A) he directly influences your life
B) you have no free will as everything is already laid out in gods plan
C) there is no meaning to anything in your life

He can't not influence your life and give meaning to it at the same time unless your life is already dictated.

 

Even though there isn't enough proof to claim he is real, [which he is] and you don't know who made us, what other explanation is there?

So because there is proof of him existing in the past being brought into the present, I go along with it. I'm a christian and happy with my faith. I don't really care if you believe he isn't real. I can't control anyone's feelings so, if you think about it the way I do. You should agree.