Does God exist?

Someone needs a good dose of Philosophy of Science. We know nothing. The only thing we may know (I really don't feel like getting into this debate) is that we exist in at least some form. I think therefore I am. Other than that, we know nothing. This could be the Matrix. Our senses lie to us constantly. There is a blind spot in the middle of both our eyes that our brain simply fills in with what it thinks should be there.

Now, given that we can never trust out senses we had to come up with a method for understanding the world that hopefully got over that for the most part. Repetition. Every time you see a black crow it becomes more likely that no white crows exist. Even if you see everything a second later you still don't know if any white crows exist because one may have appeared in that second. Science deals with guesses. It finds the theory based on the evidence that makes the most sense. If new evidence emerges then science adapts the theory to the new evidence. It will never know the full truth but it will be pretty damned close. Here's a little (big) image that explain this.

 

However, their isn't enough evidence for it to be proven, therefor it does require faith in the aspect of where the evidence isn't strong enough to be able to be proven. You do need faith to believe in scientific theories, how many times have past theories been wrong? Faith is a belief that is not based on proof, and theories are not proof, more so possible explanations based on known evidence, but not proof.

None of this applies to the unknown.

Can you honestly say that it is 100% impossible for god to exist? Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that because it is impossible to prove that he does not exist means that he does, but it does mean that it is possible for him to. Creationism is a possible explanation, maybe not probable, maybe not logical, but possible and while it is still possible for him to exist, it will always take faith and belief in what is the correct answer.

 

I think you don't understand the definition of faith, and belief, namely the distinction between the two. It would be beneficial if you look them up.

Also, it is a contradiction to require faith to believe in a scientific theory. You cannot believe in the evidence because of the absence of evidence.

It applies to everything in existence which encompasses the unknown.

Yes, logically contradictory entites don't exist in reality, a square circle doesn't exist, just like God doesn't exist (Assuming he is omnipotent).

All logically possible entities can exist, unfortunately God isn't a logically possible entity.

Creationism is a belief which defies our senses, divorces us from reality, and liberates faith to subjugate reason. Belief in certain parts of creationism is akin to belief that the sun orbits earth.

Also, always requires belief, not faith. A belief is the acceptance of something, is A reason for ones belief. For example, I believe in Evolution because of the evidence. You believe in God because of faith. Unfortunately, faith is not a method of gaining knowledge.

 

I already put the definition of faith, however you seem to have your own definition. Faith is a belief that is not based on proof, as I said. You seem to be equating evidence means theories are proof, which is inaccurate, evidence means theories are plausible.

This is if your putting your faith in the evidence, but that is not the case when dealing with a theory. A theory is an educated guess based on evidence, that does not mean that the theory is evidence, therefore to believe in the theory to be true still requires more then just believing in the evidence to be accurate.

Your logics debate still doesn't apply to the unknown, and no matter how many times you try to twist the words it won't. For something to be logical, it is done so based on currently known factors.

This is opinion and is based on known factors. Trying to debate with someone who denies the possibility of something that is certainly possible is rather pointless. You state the same thing over and over and yet get no where because you are trying to apply logic to something that it does not apply to. Just because something is illogical does not mean it is impossible to be true because something being illogical is based on current known information, unless all information is known then something being illogical just holds true for known information.

You are using inductive reasoning without realizing it, mainly because I don't think you understand fully how logics work when dealing with unknown circumstances.

 

Let me put it this way. How do we gain knowledge about the universe (reality)?

You believe that God exists in reality. This is knowledge, God either exists or he doesn't exist. What method (Epistemology) did you use to arrive at this conclusion? Faith? If so, can we apply this method to other facets of life?

A Scientific theory is a well supported explanation of certain phenomenon in the universe. You believe in the veracity of a theory based on its evidence. Truth implies knowledge, and the best epistemology to obtain knowledge about reality is Reason through the application of logic, and observing reality through the scientific method.

We are NOT dealing with an unknown.

Do you agree with the premise that illogical entities cannot exist in reality?

You think logic doesn't apply to hypothesis?

Yes it does.

If it turns out that our present information is incorrect, then our premises are wrong. However, you have no reason to believe that our premises are wrong, or do you?

For example, let's take the laws of physics. They COULD be shown to be incorrect in the future, but this does NOT negate their validity now.

I am not dealing with an unknown circumstance, also I am using deductive reasoning based on an axiom. Please tell me, what is unknown about omnipotence?

 

religion is faith..

without faith, science can't be..

creation of the world.. two chemicals reacteded, creating the big bag..

but wheres did these come from? this is where scientists use faith..

without faith there is no science. where science doesn't provale, there is faith...

No comment on poll. i dont know. im not a beliver nor a disbeliever !

 

Correct.

Incorrect.

Incorrect, The Big Bang was not the creation of the universe, the universe, or should I say existence has always existed.

You're wrong. Scientists answer this question honestly, they don't know.

Good scientists do not accept things without evidence, so they do not place their faith in things.

 

You say faith is based on belief in the absence of evidence. Now, isn't atheism the belief that there is no God, given the assumed absence of one?

While you may say that there is much evidence that disproves the existence of a God, really you aren't discrediting God, only what man has believed God to be.


can you state again why God is illogical?

 

We have a choice. We accept the statement that God exists, or we accept the statement that God does not exist. (What we utilise to justify our acceptance is our epistemological method, how we gain knowledge).

Faith is an epistemological method.
Reason is an epistemological method.
Empiricism is an epistemological method.

We believe in things based on our epistemological method. I believe in evolution because it has evidence (empricism). I believe that God cannot exist because God is an irrational entity (Reason). Some people believe that God exists because they have Faith. These different methods justify why we believe in something.

Atheism can be said to be the lack of belief in God. It can also be said to be atheism is the belief that God does not exist. Whatever the definition when asked do you think God exists, atheists will always so no. If they say anything else, then they could be agnostic, or theist.

There actually isn't much evidence that disproves the existence of God. Evidence of absence is really the only evidence (there could be more). I should say however that I use reason as opposed to evidence to justify my belief that God cannot, and thus, does not exist.

I will be the first one to say that I am open to the existence of a God. But the existence of an omnipotent God? I reject wholeheartedly. The existence of an entity we call God that is logically possible (contains no contradictions), I'm all ears, where's the evidence in support of this being?

An illogical entity is an entity that contains characteristics/features that contradict itself. Omnipotence is the primary feature. If you'd like I can go into why Omnipotence is a contradiction.

 

Good scientists do not accept things without evidence, so they do not place their faith in things.

Most scientist accept big bang theory as evidence - with no reason or explanation which they can prove.



Good scientists do not accept things without evidence, so they do not place their faith in things.

-I believe they don't accept faith, there may be no evidence for its

however there is no evidence to explain the creation of the big bang
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Many people turn to faith in hours of need,

i imagine if unexspectedly a scientists family crashed on a plane.. he'd look to god, pray.. he'd use hope, and the faith - you cant say im wrong as each one has a different opinion

these are my opinions. No one can say im incorrect as everyones opinion is different.


irrelevant : my gran is a catholic, never puts a foot wrong swear, smoke, she did drink in the past...

she's battled cancer 4 times, and is 92...

i dont belive/ nor disbelieve god..



MALAKADANG - you say you belive evolution... wheres the missing link? between man and chimp/ ape/ monkey w.e... evolution takes time so there should be 1000's of stages


[personally i believe eveolution.. just a question]

 

Most scientists accept the Big Bang Theory as an explanation about the origin of the universe as we know it because it has a lot of evidence to support it.

The evidence explaining that the Big Bang existed is encompassed within the Big Bang theory. If you mean what caused the Big Bang, scientists will honestly answer that they do not know. So what?
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I agree with you. This does not mean God exists however, it probably shows that belief in God is comforting though.

Fallacy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_entitled_to_my_opinion

It's great that you are descended from people with such resilience!

This violates the law of the excluded middle. There are only two options: You believe in God, or it i the case that you do not believe in God. There is no middle ground.

I'm not understanding what you mean by 'wheres the missing link'.

 

sorry maybe i didn't explain it properly

the missing link between a monkey and human?

evolution takes 100s of stages doesn't it? a monkey just didnt give birth to a human...

we stop evolution as humans... or class them as deformities


The evidence explaining that the Big Bang existed is encompassed within the Big Bang theory. If you mean what caused the Big Bang, scientists will honestly answer that they do not know. So what? - that basically nulls the big bang...

i dont believe in a god, as in the context it's described.. i believe in something!

maybe that something is what created the big bang?

 

that something is god

 

We have lots of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

We didn't evolve from modern monkeys; they are our cousins since we share a common ancestor in the distant past.

Why do you think so?

How?

I thought the big bang was null and void; how could god have then created it?

 

Don't even go down that road. There are no missing links because there are no links. Evolution is not a tick here's and new species, tick, here's a new species, tick here's a new species. It's a continuous process. We say we have a common ancestor with creatures but the common ancestor that is related to us could have been the odd guy out and survived in a different spot than the others of his species. There is a wide margin of difference even amongst humans. How much DNA do you have to share in order to be a human? Well, we don't know. We can find fossil after fossil after fossil but we will never find every single variation that lead to us. It just isn't going to happen. We can find similar fossils that seem to show evolution but they may not even be from the same tree. We say loads of fossils are of the same species but if we saw them living there may be major differences between them. To say we jumped from this to this to this to this and then to us just doesn't do evolution justice.

 

omfg yes he is!

 

How do you know he exists?

 

Jimmy that was the worst possible reply you could have wrote..

We didn't evolve from modern monkeys; they are our cousins since we share a common ancestor in the distant past. - where are these monkey then? why haven't they survived?



Why do i think we stop evolution as humans? - people who are born with an extra finger, get them removed.. and things like that - that could be evolution, if we didn't maybe 1000 years down the line we'd have 6 fingers? and it would be commen!



How is the big bang nulled? - not nulled more so cant ever be proven.. as there was supposedly gas particles that reacted... but where did these come from if the universe was empty



I thought the big bang was null and void; how could god have then created it? god could have created the chemical reaction....

i didn't say it didn't happen, im saying theres no possible way of finding how it started.. -.-

p.s i cant belive that you would use wikipedia to argue a case...

 

Assuming the aforementioned monkeys are still alive, they'd be in the wild, if they are dead, they'd be fossilized. Assuming that they didn't survive, probably because nature selected against them insofar that they were unable to survive to reproduce thus died out. This is very common, over 99% of species ever to have existed have died out.

You're incorrect here. Remember, evolution is a change in the gene pool overtime. If I cut my hand off, does that change my genes? No. If I cut my 6th finger off, does that change my genes? No. So, Evolution is still an ongoing process in all living organisms. So long as living organisms reproduce, gradually, the gene pool changes

You are asking a different question. Let's use an analogy.

You see a chair. You asked, who made this chair (who caused this chair). The man next to you says, I don't know, I just saw it here (evidence of its existence). Do you then say, o therefore the existence of this chair 'can't ever be proven'? No. Just because you do not know the cause of something does not necessarily mean its effect (The Big Bang), assuming there is a cause doesn't exist, or is wrong. Also, I think you misunderstand the Big Bang, gas particles didn't react...

Again, I think you misunderstand the Big Bang theory. It doesn't matter though for my point.

Who caused God?

Forgive the wording, but do you know how you started?

 

I think God exists. I'll provide an example of why I think so. I apologize in advance for the lengthy and horribly formated post :S

Prof: So you believe in God?
Student:Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student:Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student:Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm? (Student is silent.)
Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Prof:Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...
Prof:That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof:So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof:Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof:Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof:According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Studentrofessor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof:Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold . Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it .
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student:Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your Students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof:If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student:Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Student:Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent.. The Professor stares at the Student, his face unfathomable. )
Prof:I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir.The link between man & God is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

The basis of my belief God exists: faith. We all have faith that we shall accomplish something. However, if someone says that it is impossible or unachievable, thats person is reprimanded for being pessimistic etc. This opinion does not deter the faith or the belief of the person who believes he/she can accomplish the certain thing. This is the same with our belief in God. Miracles occur in life that we don't expect to happen, one can't say it they are because of science. No, some supreme being has caused it to happen. We call this being God.

Thats my 2 cents worth ^_^