Prove my existence within a state

EDITNevermind this post)

You think, therefore you are!

Okay, obviousness aside, what exactly do you mean by "within a state"? I can prove my own existence to myself (and myself only) by the "Think therefore you are" argument, but I'll never be able to prove your existence in relation to me. Though assuming you exist, I can prove to you yourself that you exist, but I'll never know.

Sorry if that's jumbled up, I just woke up.

 

Ahaaa okay! I really am tired haha!

That's a good question. There is of course a kind of "social contract" that you follow within a state, but there's no actual signing of a contract for that. You are just assumed to accept laws and accept that if you break the law you suffer the consequences from the state. So in a way, by accepting these rules that the state have in their "social contract", you're within the state.

Edit: Oh hey, I see you already made a thread on the social contract.. Woops...

 

Yeah now that I think about it that is very circular.. I think I'll just come back to this thread later as I'm too tired to think!

But some food for thought: Does this state have to be a democracy where the people themselves elect the state? Or doesn't that matter.

 

A state is defined as a territory. No matter where you go on this earth you have to be in some type of "territory". Where one territory ends another begins so you can't get "out" of territory's.

So even if you consider the entire world to only be one huge territory, you still are in one state.

We'll start with this and go from there.

 

that's only because a government needs boundaries, instead of welcoming others we decline the chance at freedom. boundaries are set and fought to obtain more, millions of people have died in the name of boundaries... it is a worthless thing, this is all one planet.

 

As I see it if you look at it from the government's perspective, if your on record i.e. they have you on paper (I started to list these but its pointless, you all know the various certificates rolls etc) you exist to the state. If they have no such records you don't exist.

 

But that is it, when I was born I was effectivley registered with the government and that has proved my existence within the state ever since. The certificates and other government documents are the only things which prove our existence within the state.

They are unable to physically prove that I exist however unless they outdo themselves, collect some physical evidence of my existence. The only factor ensuring that I continue to exist within the state is that I wish to live something of a regular life, and as such must operate within the state's framework. Of course I have no coice but to live within that framework which is probably illegal for a number of reasons.

 

No, because you were unable to operate a pen when you were born and so they have one of your parent's signatures on it, further it is not a contract but rather more of an affidavit confirming your birth, within the confines of the state. If you dont agree please explain why it's a contract rather then a confirmation of fact.

You assumed the state existed in the title, but a state is a territory under the administration of some kind of sovereign body. I cannot prove it's existence any more then I can prove the existence of a school or any similar administrative body.

 

May I ask why? It's not a document which requires a signature as it is essentially a document witnessing your physical presence. When you turn 18 you do not suddenly become a massless entity and dissapear into a puff of smoke. If I look at a child now, eighteen years from now I will still be able to claim "I saw that child however many years ago", the statement is still valid no matter the subject of the statement's age.

Again this would have some relevence if it were a contract- If you dont agree please explain why it's a contract rather then a confirmation of fact.

So it comes down to a debate over what we can consider as evidence or not. The state considers it an objective viable document, and the act of swearing such is evidence.[/quote]

Just because the type of noun has "indefite" in its particular classification, does not mean the meaning of the word it preceeds is also in question. Instead it conveys neutrality, disregarding the term, from wikipedia- "its precise identity may be irrelevant or hypothetical" But this argument is not about grammar and I myself stated that I couldn't prove this and so I'll leave it to someone else. For the purpose of the other half of the argument I'll assume it to be true.

 

I disagree, because what of the cultures that shared lands? There were no 'territories' since no one owned any piece of land.



My personal thoughts...

It is impossible to prove you exist in a state that I don't exist in.

One of the above people mentioned paperwork...that can easily be forged. Also, how would you get the original copy of those documents from another state? You'd most likely receive pictures, or some other prove that they exist and are legitimate, but you'd never for sure.

Therefore, how do we prove you exist in a state?

First off, not regarding "does reality exist" "do we really exist" lines of thoughts (as that's for another thread...) I need to go the state you say you're in. Then I need to prove to myself I exist in that state, thus proving

1) It is possible to exist within that state
2) I exist in that state

I would probably go about this by finding several different sources..let's say the state was California for example. Go around asking people "What state is this?" Get a large sample size, and there would be one of my proofs. However, for the sake of accuracy let's say you wanted three proofs. I could use some technological methods in present day times;

-GPS
- Maps

I could also use things that are unique to the area you say you're in, such as landmarks.

Finally, I would have to have traveled there in some manner..therefore I could review how I got there.

-Plane ticket to California ( I'm probably going to land in California...)
- Suitcase full of California-suited clothing (I probably expected to go California) <-- I realize this isn't very solid proof


Therefore, i'd be confident I existed in your supposed state. Now I need to prove you do. As i've stated before, you have no way of knowing if documentation is fake, etc. The only sure way to know is if I saw you in the state. I'd have to go and locate you. I'm not sure how secretive you're being so..let's say you say...

What if I didn't tell you my location?

I'd have to discover it. Military technology; heat sensors, planes, etc. Human methods; sending out people with a picture of you to attempt to locate you, asking around if anyone knows you, actually giving documentation a chance (Phone book primarily) etc.

When I come face to face with you within the boundaries of the state, and I know I exist in that state, I can therefore be sure that you do too.

 

I apologize. I didn't read your indefinite article post prior to typing my argument trying to prove you're in a geographical area.

You've given hints at what you define a state as..and the closest i've got is that you're looking for a political sense; so i'll go with that. (Since you said "I don't pay 40% of my taxes to the ground.)




Well, the every government sort of has these gripping tentacles on people. I'm not saying their malicious, but they are there, and you do feel them. Whether it be in the form of taxes or paperwork, or in the form of police knocking at your door.

The google definition I found was : A body politic, especially one constituting a nation

So i'm proving you're part of a body politic.

As you already said, you pay taxes. <-- Proof one.

Can you honestly say you've never encountered a public service in your environment? Police, fire trucks/men, libraries, public restrooms, etc? <-- proof 2 ; the existence of public services

Using prior knowledge, I know you're of legal age to vote; and even if you don't, you're of an age where you can witness an election and realize that it is an election. A democracy can only take place within a political body. <--- proof three

Therefore, you're in a state. Doesn't matter which state or where, but since you're part of a political body you're in "a state".