DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) Why is it illegal?

Recently my philosophy group went over DMT, because someone thought it would be an interesting talking point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

A Quick description of DMT:
DMT is Dimethyltryptamine, THE most powerful hallucinogen known. It is produced in small quantities naturally in most living things, and is thought to be partially responsible for our dreams.

There are no known side effects from it's use; it is not addictive. (In fact, many people say that they would not want to experience it more than a few times.)

A trip (when induced by smoking or injection) only lasts for 10-20 minutes, after which the person is totally back to normal. (As in, totally totally back to normal, they don't come down off it, they are just back, same as before.)

(Some special orally taken brews extend the experience to last several hours, by nature of the amount consumed and rate at which it is released into the bloodstream)

There are known cases where it has been used to cure addictions to drugs such as heroine or cocane. (After that experience, they've had enough lol)

However, "DMT is classified as a Schedule I drug under the UN 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances, meaning that use of DMT is supposed to be restricted to scientific research and medical use and international trade in DMT is supposed to be closely monitored." Internationally

and "DMT is classified in the United States as a Schedule I drug under the Controlled Substances Act of 1970." in the united states


What reasons might there be for making DMT illegal? Why should it be? Should the law change?

Just wanted to get some thoughts on this.

 

Only skimmed through it so i don't know if you mentioned DMT is also in your brain. Its connected to REM sleep. There are many reasons why the government would want it illegal. Its all speculation. The reason they give is obviously bullshit. See hallucinogens do something to you. They open your mind, makes you think clearer. You see the world differently. I think that they don't want that. They want to keep everyone under control and they don't want any confrontation.

The law should change i don't know if it will. Also i don't think ANY police officers are actually aware of these drugs or are given any kind of street drug tests that can identify what it is. I don't imagine to many people get arrested for DMT. DMT can be found in almost anything. Grass,trees etc. You can actually buy things online that contain DMT and if prepared correctly it can be maid into Ayahuasca. There are actually many legal hallucinogens that just cant be made illegal because they grow everywhere and would be prety damn hard to enforce. Let me give you a list.

Rivea corymbosa Seeds
Morning Glory Seeds - Flying Saucers
Morning Glory Seeds - Heavenly Blue
Salvia
HB Woodrose Seeds (Hawaii)
Amanita Muscaria Mushrooms
DXM (cough syrup)

Most of these drugs are fairly unknown and not studied and have pretty ill side effects(Vomiting, intense nausea,Vasoconstriction, and diarrhea) At least the LSA containing seeds do that. Salvia is pretty much like DMT but less intense but still compared to taking many hits of acid. Lasts for the same amount of time. When i took it i felt normal after but had a hard time sleeping and had cold sweats. The mushrooms iv never done but from what iv read the effects can be scary. Iv watched trip reports on DXM same thing pretty much nausea vomiting. Then intense euphoria. Intense closed eye visuals. enhanced feelings for music etc..

 

There is no evidence for this, it is merely one scientist's conjecture in finding DMT in mammals.

This is just paranoia. It's illegal for all the same reasons every other illicit substance is: ignorance, and the belief we need to be protected from ourselves.

Police officers wouldn't know what it is because of its general rarity beyond certain concerts and very close friends. Most DMT is synthed by the person who wishes to use it.

Giving a method to identify these at the local level would be a waste of money.

Smoked DMT and ingested (ayahuasca) DMT are very different, I wouldn't compare them.

You mean like marijuana? lol
Nothing is really difficult to enforce, the question is will they use the resources?

okey!

All really the same thing, the unpleasant LSA, even when you manage to get rid of the nausea.

It's pretty much only the LSA, and even then with LSA you can get rid of everything except the vascoconstriction.

Hell no, this is exactly why idiots do salvia haphazardly. This substance is far more dangerous than either DMT or acid, since the experience can not really be controlled. It doesn't matter how experienced you are things can go very wrong very fast. The only reason salvia remained legal were because of loopholes in the law.

 

lolwut

Hallucinogens make you hallucinate. Period. That's why they're called "hallucinogens".

To TC:

We don't care about the side effects - we care about the main effects. According to you, it's the "most powerful hallucinogen". You think that's a good thing? It practically makes you temporarily schizophrenic.

Hmm, I wonder why now?

 

So it's bad BECAUSE it's a hallucinogen? Why are Hallucinogens BAD?
What about Hallucinogens makes them intrinsically bad, evil, etc? I see no reason for them to be, unless it results in actual HARM.

DMT Harms nobody, not even the user.

As I said in OP, It has even been used to HELP people overcome addictions to hard drugs.


"It practically makes you temporarily schizophrenic. "

Wikipedia:

Not really, During the trip the person doesn't act. I'm told (by a person who used it) that "You take puff, lay back, and then experience it. You essentially have sleep paralysis for the duration."

After it's over (In 15 or so minutes) the person is TOTALLY back to normal they are not schizophrenic, they are the same as they were before the experience. (other than that they will be thinking about the experience) It does not affect their thought process, it does not inherently make them paranoid. Any change would be as a result of their interpretation of the experience, not the chemicals themselves.

 

No, there is far more to an experience to these substances than their visuals. The visuals are overly exaggerated, especially by non-users.

As long as the education is there, why not?

I can't think of a drug that actually does this? Maybe a dissociative possibly, but even then.

Because there is rarely need beyond curiosity to do it, just because an experience has no recreational value doesn't mean it's bad.

 

It's a powerful hallucinogen and it has the potential to cause extremely bad trips. It could cause extreme paranoia and also could trigger some other psychological effects in some people.

Hallucinogens are relatively safe when people who use them are prepared for their trip. If it was legal, people would be taking it all the time and they may not know what they are going into, especially if it's their first time.

The reason why it's not addictive is because the experience is something else and scares the shit out of people who take it. So they do not wish to take it over and over again.

 

So then you're saying we need to be protected from ourselves?

 

Bad = immoral? No. Bad as in it's bad for your body. It's illegal so people don't harm themselves (or others, in the case of LSD, which is a hallucinogen).

The fact that you smoke it means it is harmful to you and the people around you. For your information, I'm against cigarette use as well.

And it does harm the user - maybe not biologically (if you ignore the smoking aspect), but definitely mentally. I'll give you a few stories below. Or you can just read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Side_effects.

These are some biological effects (nothing too scary): "Dimethyltryptamine dose slightly elevated blood pressure, heart rate, pupil diameter, and rectal temperature."

Also, "the intensity of the DMT experience could trigger mental illnesses in those with a predisposition to such diseases." Mental illnesses are so vast that I wouldn't be surprised if the number of us which qualify as having a predisposition to them is large.

Medicinal use is different than recreational use. Even heroin, cocaine, etc. have their own medicinal uses. Would you argue that we should legalize those as well?

Funny fact 1 - this definition actually helps my statement even more. DMT causes auditory hallucinations as well, much like schizophrenia. This link (http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-dmt.htm) says that some people on DMT have "conversations with intelligent alien-type creatures". Ha.

Funny fact 2 - schizophrenia isn't limited to just auditory hallucinations. Visual ones are included as well (approximately 69% are auditory, and 9% are visual - the rest are of different types): http://www.jpps.com.pk/display_articles.asp?d=164&p=art.

Funny fact 3 - you're more prone to being delusional when you are hallucinating. This is common sense. It's like if I have a computer with faulty sensors. Any data processing based on data collected from said sensors will lose its integrity.

Have you ever read The Tell-Tale Heart, by Edgar Allen Poe? Google it - it's a good example of hallucinations causing a delusional mindset.

Funny fact 4 - I'm not the only one who claims that hallucinogens can have similar effects to that of a schizophrenic. Some people have made the connection with LSD and schizophrenia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia.

If you're not convinced, read below, where I'll break down the definition of schizophrenia, point by point, and compare it to the effects of taking a hallucinogen.

So, you generalize the effects of DMT based on one personal story, of a person who most likely has an affinity to defend drugs of the type? What about what this guy says about it: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/514087-DMT-First-time-Bad-Trip.

Can't you just see how delusional he sounds? And by the way, these delusions are based on hallucinations - some are even auditory.

I said it practically makes you temporarily schizophrenic. Never said anything about the "after-effects".

----------------------------------

To mage3158 (although I suggest you read as well, General_Kerr):

And you think the other parts of the experience are even better? Ever heard of people falling off high distances while on LSD (a hallucinogen) because they couldn't judge distances properly?

And the way I see it, is that the users are exaggerating the visuals. It's always something like having 3D vision, seeing alien-like creatures, etc. (read the stories that I will give you, I'm not making this up). In the end, it seems the conclusion is, "you have to try it man, you have no idea how this feels like". Curiosity, isn't it?

Say what? Hallucinogens make you hallucinate. You're more prone to being delusional while you hallucinate. You're claiming that it's okay as long as the education is there? What education?

Schizophrenia deals with hallucinations which, in turn, cause delusional thoughts (go figure). If hallucinogens cause hallucinations, and hallucinations can cause you to be delusional, then given that DMT is a hallucinogen, it can cause you to be delusional. Now let's look at that definition of schizophrenia that General_Kerr has provided me with:

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by a deficit of typical emotional responses. Common symptoms include auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction."

Let's list all aspects of schizophrenia:

1 - "Breakdown of thought processes" - surely this happens. Give a person high on LSD a math problem and see if he/she can solve it.

2 - "A deficit of typical emotional responses" - this may be the only point where hallucinogens are different, as they typically excite emotional responses (to unreasonable extents). Check out this guy on DMT: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=75585. He seems to be getting terrified over unexpected stimuli whilst on DMT.

And even so, people on LSD can feel completely dissociated from the people around them (after their "trip" is over), which can be considered as a deficit of typical emotional responses - http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd5.htm.

3 - "Auditory hallucinations" - I've already provided a link where someone on DMT was having auditory hallucinations: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/514087-DMT-First-time-Bad-Trip.

4 - "Paranoid or bizarre delusions" - hallucinations can cause delusions. The 2 links I gave above should give you more than enough evidence for that, but it's really common sense. Again, it's like if I have a computer with faulty sensors. Obviously any data processing based on the data provided by these sensors would lose its integrity.

5 - "Disorganized speech and thinking" - perhaps not disorganized speech, but definitely disorganized thinking (similar to the first point).

6- "Significant social or occupational dysfunction" - please, anyone who knows what a hallucinogen such as LSD can do shouldn't even argue against this: http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd5.htm.

Also, I'm not the only one who is claiming that the effects of hallucinogens can resemble those of a schizophrenic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia.

I doubt that "fulfilled curiosity" is the reason. Even General_Kerr has insinuated that it may be too intense in his OP: "After that experience, they've had enough lol".

Plus, it's written more concretely here (pay careful attention to the underlined parts in the quote below): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Side_effects

"Psychologically, the DMT experience can be overly intense, potentially causing overwhelming fear and difficulty integrating experiences if one is not mentally prepared. Furthermore, due to the intense nature of the experience, DMT is generally considered to have no addiction potential."

And finally, curiosity has its limits. It's no justification to take a drug just because you have no idea what it feels like.

 

Even though it really isn't harmful! But regardless that's not important. Why do people need to be protected from themselves? Why can't we make our own decisions? I don't need America telling me what's good or bad for me, I'm fully aware.

Prove the smoke is harmful. Plus not only that but the amount of people ever exposed to it is extremely limited.

Paranoia can be common, but that doesn't mean much.

This is pure conjecture and you know it, but nice try. The mental disorders that are usually triggered are known in family lines, not incredibly difficult for the user to take caution.

Knowledge is power!

Yes I would, but this is completely irrelevant.

You really want to head down this road? Well schizophrenia hallucinations tend to be indistinguishable from reality, psychedelic hallucinations on the other hand will almost never considered a reality post trip and reflection, unless the person wants to believe that. Even during most trips hallucinations can easily be distinguished from reality, there are very few exceptions to this in the drug world, and those are very rarely used. (Such as DPH)

Who cares?

This isn't entirely correct, especially for psychedelic (LSD, DMT, Mushrooms, 2c-b, 2c-c, Nbome) hallucinogens. Delusions are most common under the dissociative (DXM, MXE, Ketamine, PCP) and deliriant (DPH, Belladonna, Datura) lines of hallucinogens.

E A Poe was a opiate addict and an alcoholic not a hallucinogen user. His sensationalized writings on hallucinations don't mean a thing.

That page just points out the theory of LSD causing schizophrenia, which is debunked.

You're incorrectly comparing one drug's effects with hallucinations in general. Everyone reacts differently to different chemicals. I get extreme anxiety from cannabis, which is unusual to most people, but that's me, I got the bad side effect.

Besides read on, there was no ill effects afterwards mentally or physically.

Those are incredibly rare mind you, and most major falls were actually deemed suicides.

You're looking at DMT reports, of course you're going to read intense visuals on the most visually intense psychedelic. Try reading reports on LSD or 2c-c, very different.

I actually had to scroll down to read what the hell you were quoting. Education helps in people's decisions to take a certain substance, understand the risks and prepare accordingly.

This is why Erowid exists, and is why I'm against all the misinformation in schools.

We keep coming to this point because you're like a broken record. Can you honestly prove it's the hallucinations that cause delusions? And if so is it a specific nature of hallucinations or all hallucinations? This is very important.

I'm not quoting any more points on this.

Most I've heard was not a disorganization but thought loops. Not the same.

You're fucking kidding me.

Who cares the reason people don't continue? This is a red herring.

Again, who cares? Unless you can prove serious issues are directly linked with that, it doesn't matter at all.

We don't need protection from something because it's too intense for some people, we should be able to decide.

And this is where correctly educating people of drug use comes in. It may not be a good reason but this is surely a big reason why people try these things. When people are more educated on these matters they can make more educated decisions on what to and what not to take. And people who don't consider it? That was their choice.



Addendum: Can you please please please please stop repeating yourself? It makes it very annoying to look through your arguments.

 

I'm still reading, and will get around to my reply tomorrow hopefully.

1. You keep referring to LSD, which is not DMT on many counts. Bad effects from LSD != bad effects for DMT, necessarily. Whether or not the two compare is conjecture.

2. I'll find more sources for my points in the future...

3. In that trip report the person had been using pot, LSD, drinking heavily etc... Had childhood abuse, and other problems buried. DMT brought these out... They also had an odd mindset that caused them to relate to the experience differently. The person never said they regretted it, however. I think that her change in mentality may have been because of the forced confrontation with Her abuse, and other issues.

 

You're telling me I'm repeating points when you're replying to a post that was directed towards 2 people - I formatted it pretty well where the split was between you and General_Kerr. To blame me for repeating points means you're not really reading the content of my post - rather, just replying quote for quote.

Because people can be pretty stupid. It's called substance abuse. How many people fall into that trap?

Seriously? Just the fact that smoking creates carbon monoxide, which you are inhaling directly, is harmful. Read about negative effects of carbon monoxide:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carbon-monoxide-d_893.html

And if it's legalized, then second hand smoking will be more prominent. Do I need to give you a link showing how that is harmful as well?

This is pure conjecture (the underlined part) and you know it, but nice try. I would argue that some people would be unaware of the mental illnesses within their family line - things like depression, OCD, etc. are things that the parents of cousins, for example, would keep away from each other simply due to social pressure.

Knowledge is power!

We won't get anywhere like this.

Well hell, perhaps I should try to convince you why heroin and cocaine are bad before I even start talking about hallucinogens.

And if you're saying it's irrelevant, you're attacking General_Kerr's argument, which went something like this: "Hallucinogens have positive medicinal benefits, therefore they should be legalized for recreational use."

Few exceptions, really? Did you read the links I gave you? http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd5.htm

"They become uninterested in participating in the world going on around them and feel completely disconnected from everybody else. The real problem is that because they're taking LSD so often, they think the LSD is creating the illusion that their life is a mess instead of recognizing that it really is a mess."

Sounds like they're blaming LSD for aspects which really exist in their real lives! That's both delusional, and it shows how the LSD users sometimes cannot distinguish reality from illusion.

Dude, trace the argument, please. I don't mind going point for point, but do it carefully, or you may get lost. General_Kerr underlined "auditory hallucinations" in the definition of schizophrenia, and then concluded that hallucinations of schizophrenia are no where near those of someone under a hallucinogen, because hallucinogens such as DMT are concerned with visual hallucinations. I simply highlighted that visual hallucinations are a part of schizophrenia - and auditory hallucinations are a part of hallucinogens!

It is entirely correct - it's pure common sense. I gave the analogy of a computer. We'll just criticize one point though - you're saying LSD doesn't make you delusional. So when the person jumping out of their window thought it would be okay because they couldn't judge the distance from their window to the ground properly (the hallucination aspect), are you saying his/her decision wasn't delusional?

Look at the definition of both terms:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Delusion_vs_Hallucination

Hallucinations are false perceptions (generated by the brain). That's it - analysis of these perceptions are NOT included in the definition. Delusions are false, inferential beliefs about external reality. If a person hallucinating is imagining inexistent things in external reality, obviously his inferences on external reality will be false, as they're based on inexistent things.

Oh cool, now let's read what I said again. I'll underline the important parts:

"Have you ever read The Tell-Tale Heart, by Edgar Allen Poe? Google it - it's a good example of hallucinations causing a delusional mindset."

This has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poe himself. I said hallucinations were causing delusional thoughts. Do you really want me to prove it in this story? Fine - whilst stalking the old man, the protagonist claimed he could "hear his heartbeat", which is an auditory hallucination. Based on this hallucination, he concluded that he must kill the old man, so the "neighbors won't be annoyed with the sound of his heart". Are you telling me this isn't delusional? It is. Now what was this delusional mindset caused by? An auditory hallucination.

If you're willing to argue that you must have hallucinations to be able to conclude that they can cause delusions, you're wrong. It's common sense.

Yes, but you're missing my point. I'm claiming that I'm not the only one who thinks the effects of schizophrenia are similar to those of a hallucinogen. Nowhere did I claim that LSD (for example) causes schizophrenia. LSD may not cause schizophrenia, but my argument is that it has SIMILAR EFFECTS to schizophrenia. And guess what? Why was research done to see if LSD could cause schizophrenia? Because of the one sentence on that page which actually corroborates what I was saying: "The early work thought that LSD-induced hallucinations or psychosis resembled so-called schizophrenic hallucinations, and LSD psychotics resembled so-called schizophrenics."

This is a cop-out. How do you expect me to explain every case, with every single human being, and using every drug classified as a hallucinogen? I cannot - it's not humanely possible. The best way is for me to take examples. The fact is, if the TC states that DMT is "the most powerful hallucinogen", then any other negative side effect of any other hallucinogen I talk about has the potential (underlined that so you don't tell me this statement is logically inconsistent) to be exacerbated when speaking of DMT. Unless the TC is wrong.

How many times have I said that I don't care about the after-effects? I care about what you think while you're on it - what delusional actions you could do.

Suicides? Hmm, and I wonder why the person felt extra suicidal whilst on LSD (overly excited emotional responses due to the LSD is the answer you're looking for).

Oh, and no, they're not just deemed suicides. Some were caused by misjudgement of distance, as I have said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ld_fly_and_jumped_out_window.2Ffell_off_cliff

And there are cases of people on LSD walking in front of cars and getting killed, getting into a car accident whilst driving, etc.

Let's not forget what the title of this thread is - it's concerned with DMT.

Anyhow, according to this website (http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd3.htm), a good trip on LSD might look like this:



Looks pretty intense! And that's actually a good trip - imagine a bad one.

Exactly - give them proper education. Not that all drugs are okay.

Oh mage3158, you blame me for your own faults. I made it EXTREMELY CLEAR in my post that I was talking to 2 people. Want to see the evidence? Look at what I said below:

See that huge line, and then the part where I say "to mage3158"? That means that I'm starting a new post, with new content. I'm not going to refer you to read what I said to General_Kerr - I repeat common arguments to you. You should thank me for saving you some scrolling time!

I've already addressed this above. And it deals with all hallucinations of perceptions related to external reality.

Disorganized thinking: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/disorganized-schizophrenia/DS00864/DSECTION=symptoms

"Disorganized thinking causes illogical, nonsensical thought patterns."

You're telling me thought loops aren't a "nonsensical thought pattern"?

Oh yes, I must be kidding! God, we should introduce LSD into the workplace - maybe that will hasten our productivity!

I provide links, and yet you reject my claims with empty ones.

No it's NOT a red herring. It's good to know why people would ever stop a drug. It can show how intense a drug really is. If the drug is really intense, then how can it be deemed legal and safe to use? People generally don't know their limits - look at how many people get drunk on alcohol. If they can figure out their limits on DMT, then that just shows you how intense this drug really is.

It's funny how you always ask for proof, rather than empirical evidence. But okay, we'll stick with proof.

Premise 1: Hallucinations can cause delusions.
Premise 2: Death can be caused by delusions.
Conclusion: Hallucinations can cause death.

And hallucinogens cause hallucinations. I can provide empirical evidence for both of these premises (already have, actually). If you agree that they can be true, then you agree that the conclusion can be true.

Now death is extreme, but you can replace it with something as simple as "irrationality". If DMT causes irrationality, then that, for me, is still considered to be an extreme issue.

I wouldn't like to live in your idea of a perfect world, where drugs like heroin and cocaine are legal.

Don't forget, we are a society. For my own safety, I don't want LSD to be legalized so that OTHERS can use it whenever they want and, for example, drive on the streets when they are having a trip. We already have a problem with drunk driving - no need to introduce other sources of problems. Imagine if there were LSD bars!

But what you do at home has NOTHING to concern me. If you want to take LSD at home illegally, I have no say in that - it's your choice. But don't ask for it to be legal so you can take it out in the public!

Exactly - let's educate them appropriately.

---------------------------------

To General_Kerr:

Yes, excuse me, I can be pretty verbose.

Yes, but you said that DMT is the MOST powerful hallucinogen. So the effects of LSD can be argued to be weaker than those of DMT, based on your claim!

That would be great, but most things you'll find are forum posts from biased people.

DMT bringing those out is still a bad effect - it's exacerbating potential mental illnesses which would've never been prominent without the utilization of the drug.

 

Still don't have time to go over this thoroughly right this second, will try to get to it thoroughly later today!

Not really what I meant.
more like "DMT has very little potential for harm, and on the contrary can be beneficial, therefore it should not be illegal."
It's not necessary for the argument, just to help.

My thought is that it would end up regulated the way any other product is, if it causes something bad then the maker can be sued if he didn't properly warn the person.

DMT Isn't a more powerful version of LSD, It's something different. They are both classed as psychedelics because the experiences they both produce are... psychedelic, not because they both behave in the exact same manner.

LSD != DMT | Arguing that DMT is bad because of effects that LSD has is like arguing that one black man is bad because of the bad actions of another black man. Each needs judged separately.

It's not that type of smoking, it's not something done outside, socially... The person likely needs to lay down.

I'm not sure what is produced when crystallized DMT is "Smoked" actually.

There are also other methods of consumption: injection (with does have issues imo), and orally (The ayawuska brew or whatever it's called - Currently legal for some religious use)

When it comes to smoking, it's literally two puffs and lights out. You'll likely get worse from your car exhaust than that.


I wouldn't necessarily consider recreational use to be Wise of pretty much any drug. Rather, I don't consider it government's role to tell us we can't. (Trying to ban things is, in part, responsible for the gang issues in the US... they remain funded through drug money)

I personally don't drink alcohol, smoke, or even drink caffeine... and only drink pop socially .

 

IMO, it should be the persons choice what they put into there body. That said, DMT's illegal because if they legalized it there would be an uproar literally everywhere in the US. The people against it will be fighting for it be banned and the people for it will be arguing why they legalized DMT instead of this, this, or this.

If it were legal it would be the go to drug most of the time and it'd become more widespread. I'm probably not the only one that doesn't want people hopped up on DMT everywhere I go.

If it were up to me all drugs would be legal. Putting somebody in jail doesn't stop them from using again. At least I've never ran into somebody who's stopped doing drugs because they got caught.

 

Many drugs are legal just not regulated by governments. Drugs like LSA, amanitas, salvia etc. These drugs aren't some wide spread epidemic even though you can legally buy them online or even in stores in some places. The reason there isn't some kind of widespread epidemic is because these drugs don't have much recreational value like cigarettes,weed, and alcohol. There might be a slightly higher number of people doing it for a period of time if it became legal(purely out of curiosity) but then it would mellow out because drugs like DMT are not for the faint of heart.

 

So responsible people should be punished because stupid people will be stupid? Nice.

Are you positive the smoke created by DMT is carbon monoxide? And if so, the amount?

You honestly think this drug would be used in public settings in large amounts?

I've never heard of it bringing out OCD and depression. You're assuming all mental disorders are at risk of being brought out, while schizophrenia is the main one being thrown around.

Try it.

This matters why?

I'll complete this later, I can't keep doing this on a shitty netbook trckpad.

 

Haha, okay.

Alright.

I like the analogy, but judging from what I've read, they appear very similar. Even LSD doesn't really have side effects, an addiction factor, etc. In fact, with more research, I may even be able to argue that DMT is worse than LSD.

If DMT is legalized (this is what this is all about anyways - the legalization of DMT) then social smoking of not just DMT, but other "lesser" drugs where you don't need to "lay down" could happen.

Carbon monoxide was just an example. Rule of thumb - it's rarely a good idea to sniff the fumes of a burning substance. With blunts, you're literally inhaling all of it.

Does DMT have the same effect when taken orally? Who knows - perhaps it can cause problems in the digestive track?

Sure, if you sniff your car exhaust like a blunt!

100% agree.

Just make it harder for my future kids (if I get kids) to access, please.

I'm exactly the same - even with drinking pop socially!

Yes. First, I wouldn't call the majority of drug users "responsible". Second, this is the real world. May I ask - why is it hard to find a job without a degree? All the information we need is on the Internet; however, the responsible people who realize this still need to waste time in college to get a degree (ahem, credibility certificate) for the sake of the stupid people who have no incentive to study on their own and are only getting an education because it's against the law to not get one!

DMT can be smoked in blunts. You're burning an organic substance. Incomplete combustion can happen. Here is a study that shows that smoking marijuana (for example) in blunts produces more carbon monoxide than smoking it in joints - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376871609001045. Obviously the way it's smoked (as a blunt rather than a joint) is playing a factor here. And even so, carbon monoxide is just an example. There are many more fumes - dangerous ones, at that. Do you EVER think it's safe to DIRECTLY inhale burning fumes from ANY substance? Even regular paper, when burned, will produce toxic fumes called dioxins (some joints are essentially paper - cigarette paper, in fact, which is arguably worse). These are some of the most toxic fumes known to scientists - they can cause cancer, developmental problems, damage the immune system, etc.

Here's a source claiming that burning paper creates dioxins: http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/32060.html

And here's a source talking about the negative health impact of dioxins:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs225/en/

Legalization of this drug would lead to legalization of many others. It's opening a door for many opportunities.

The sources I cited did not mention OCD, but they did mention depression. And I was just throwing mental illnesses around in there - not being literal (hence the "etcetera"). The underlying point was that some parents would not publicize to their families that their child has a mental disorder - even if these are things which could be exacerbated by drugs (perhaps depression, bipolar disease, or schizophrenia) or not (OCD).

My references don't have any information showing that drugs can exacerbate symptoms of OCD, but studies may exist - it's just not important for me to find them, as this is irrelevant to the point at hand.

For one, they're extremely addictive. You'll develop a chemical dependence to them that has been scientifically explained (eventual depression of neurotransmitter receptors in the brain).

So your tolerance will increase, which just encourages you to take a larger dose, putting yourself more at risk for biological danger.

I could go on and on explaining why heroin is bad, but really, just search on Google. Please, one of its side effects is sudden death: http://www.all-side-effects.net/heroin-side-effects.

Trace the argument. I never started this, just responded to it, and got accused for irrelevancy.

Haha, okay, but seriously, all trackpads suck. Use a mouse!

 

Any state of consciousness that is not focused on the production or consumption of material goods is highly stigmatized (see: "Hippie", etc.) The government radically opposes anything that threatens to offer a new state of consciousness; a shift in perception. I mean cannabis is a schedule 1 drug for God's sake. These substances-- cannabis, LSD, DMT--offer an entirely new perspective on life and are often known to affect users in such a significant way that they often report a dramatic change in life priorities after experiencing them.

 

This is very true. A lot of substances that can cause altered states aren't illegal, because they're not an epidemic or pose serious threat. Salvia you can trip for 15 or 20 minutes and that is pretty much it. Psycosilibin can produce lengthy trips of hours on end, and also cause many well documented side effects. It has even been proven that it can cause cluster headaches due to nerve degradation.

 

I would say DMT is illegal because it has the chance to fuck someone up permanently or long term. It is the most powerful phsycalic on earth, it is not to be treated lightly. Now something like LSD or 2C family is still pretty powerful (all depends on the person) but they won't really change you permanently. DMT on the other hand can change YOU as a person forever. It's hard to explain, but it is really powerful and is probably illegal to stop people randomly doing it and fucking themselves up.