Chriscross23's Dispute

Hello and thank you for taking the time to take a look at this. Well recently I was banned for a trade from two years ago where I was accused of scamming. Let me start off by saying I did not and do not remember every detail of the trade. I was told I was banned for my confession to Tyro. In this dispute I will prove to you without a doubt that my confession should be deemed incredulous.

I will be proving two points in this dispute, the first one is disproving my confession.

Let me start it off by posting the chat logs, if you do not want to read the full logs scroll to the bottom of them and I will highlight the important ones.

Code:

1.	Chris says:
2.	*Hello
3.	Tyro says:
4.	*Hi
5.	Chris says:
6.	*You wanted me?
7.	Tyro says:
8.	*Yes
9.	*I have some questions.
10.	Chris says:
11.	*Hopefully I have some answers
12.	Tyro says:
13.	*Hold on
14.	Chris says:
15.	*Alright.
16.	Tyro says:
17.	*Okay.
18.	*In this thread you're selling a 1 defense pure: http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=506097
19.	Chris says:
20.	*Yes
21.	Tyro says:
22.	*Two weeks later, you sell a pure that looks very similar: http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=517717
23.	Chris says:
24.	*Let me look through the first thread
25.	*I remember both of those sales
26.	Tyro says:
27.	*Were they separate accounts?
28.	Chris says:
29.	*I don't remember the first trade being succesful?
30.	*No they werethe same.
31.	Tyro says:
32.	*Ah
33.	Chris says:
34.	*If I sold the first one (was two years ago I can't remember)
35.	*What I received was probably taken back.
36.	*I can't even find a vouch for it.
37.	*I had 4 vouches before coming back to sythe a few months ago
38.	Tyro says:
39.	*Paypal history?
40.	Chris says:
41.	*This is the first: http://sythe.org/showthread.php?p=4082481#post4082481
42.	*I didn't receive IRL cash
43.	*for the first
44.	*I don't even think it sold
45.	*Because I don't have a vouch for it.
46.	Tyro says:
47.	*Are you sure?
48.	Chris says:
49.	*I sold a 95 zerker, I bought a pure (which I can't remember meaning it musta been recovered), i sold my lvl 74 with 91 mage (0o0 o0o0 oo) and i swapped accs with another kid
50.	*If that is a question you already have the answer to, please help me figure this out.
51.	Tyro says:
52.	*Wouldn't you know if you still possessed that account?
53.	Chris says:
54.	*THe pure?
55.	*it is banned
56.	*Name was in the area
57.	Tyro says:
58.	*How do you know?
59.	Chris says:
60.	*arena *
61.	Tyro says:
62.	*What does that mean...
63.	Chris says:
64.	*What does wat mean?
65.	*I'm looking through the thread
66.	*I sold it to darkspirith
67.	Tyro says:
68.	*How do you know that the pure is banned?
69.	*I thought you just said you didn't sell it...
70.	Chris says:
71.	*the first thread
72.	*it wasn't sold
73.	*I'm looking at the second now.
74.	*I'm trying to think
75.	*REALLY hard
76.	Tyro says:
77.	*This? http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=506097
78.	Chris says:
79.	*I can't remember what payment I took for this account
80.	*Yes
81.	*I'm looking at that
82.	*i sold it to darkspirith
83.	*I can't remember what he gave me
84.	*paypal cash, another acc
85.	*or what
86.	Tyro says:
87.	*Which account. Please be more specific.
88.	Chris says:
89.	*THe pure
90.	*he offers me
91.	*33m+ an account
92.	*I have today no accounts I have purchased off sythe.
93.	*So the account musta been recovered.
94.	Tyro says:
95.	*So to whom did you sell the 91 mage?
96.	Chris says:
97.	*Katiebaby
98.	Tyro says:
99.	*Darkspirith?
100.	Chris says:
101.	*no
102.	*those are two dif accs
103.	*the lvl 74 pure
104.	*with 91 mage
105.	Tyro says:
106.	*Oh, okay.
107.	Chris says:
108.	*i sold to katiebaby
109.	*she recovered her acc
110.	*mine got locked when I tried to recover mine
111.	Tyro says:
112.	*Ah
113.	Chris says:
114.	*then I got it unlocked about ummm
115.	*18 months ago
116.	Tyro says:
117.	*So you remember selling it to Katie?
118.	Chris says:
119.	*yes
120.	*she pretended to be a girl
121.	*for like
122.	*3 months
123.	*she was recently banned off sythe (I saw her resurface)
124.	*the lvl 74 pures name is 0o0 o0o0 oo (still on high scores)
125.	*the other pures name was "in the arena"
126.	*Has been banned for over a year I believe
127.	Tyro says:
128.	*When was it banned in relation to the first trade?
129.	Chris says:
130.	*The first thread was made
131.	*it wasn't sold
132.	*the second thread was made
133.	*I sold it
134.	*acc I got must have been recovered
135.	*and then i took it back
136.	*I'd say umm
137.	*6 months? I honestly have NO CLUE
138.	*I was 14 or 15 at the time
139.	Tyro says:
140.	*This is the first thread you're referring to, right? 	http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=506097
141.	 
142.	Chris says:
143.	*Correct
144.	*wait
145.	Tyro says:
146.	*So you didn't sell it?
147.	Chris says:
148.	*I see at bottom
149.	*both are sold
150.	*give me a minute
151.	Tyro says:
152.	*Okay.
153.	Chris says:
154.	*This is a lot to remember after 2 years
155.	*I said I didn't sell because I didn't see a vouch for it
156.	*in my vouches profile
157.	Tyro says:
158.	*Mhm
159.	Chris says:
160.	*I remember the name wardicus...
161.	*hmm
162.	*the only explination I can provide is I swapped them and the 	other accounts were recovered first.
163.	*I mean I can dig through my paypal history if neccesary
164.	*but I remember I did not receive any IRL cash for those accounts
165.	*Due to me being a leecher at that time
166.	Tyro says:
167.	*You think you traded with Wardicus?
168.	Chris says:
169.	*I don't remember, but I remember his name for some reason
170.	*I'm going to look through his posts
171.	Tyro says:
172.	*Okay
173.	Chris says:
174.	*I wish I was as organized then as I am now
175.	*I'd have everything needed saved in a folder :x
176.	*I honestly have no clue what to tell you right now except for the 	fact that I have never scammed one person on sythe.
177.	*On any website for that matter.
178.	*Closest thing to scamming I've ever done was a rl friend was 	selling me 20m through BH, we didn't live the transfer so I didn't 	pay.
179.	Tyro says:
180.	*Alright, Chris, here's the deal
181.	*I know you took the account back
182.	*I'll give you a chance to admit it
183.	*It was two years ago
184.	*And people change
185.	Chris says:
186.	*Which account?
187.	*"in the arena"?
188.	Tyro says:
189.	*The 1 def pure with lower mage
190.	Chris says:
191.	*yes, in the arena
192.	*When I sold it to darkspirith?
193.	Tyro says:
194.	*Is that who you sold it to?
195.	Chris says:
196.	*The thread says he bought it
197.	*I said both are sold and he posts saying he bought it
198.	*So I would assume he bought it
199.	*But he is now banned so I can't come into contact with him
200.	*+it was an acc swap and I don't even remember the account he gave 	me
201.	*Tyro I DO NOT want to be banned, sythe is all I do.
202.	*I do not even remember half of these trades.
203.	Tyro says:
204.	*Do you remember recovering the account after selling it to Dark?
205.	Chris says:
206.	*I'm trying to watch what i say to not contradict myself, but it 	is hard.
207.	Tyro says:
208.	*If you're honest, you don't have to worry about contradicting 	yourself
209.	Chris says:
210.	*I do remember recovering it yes.  But if my memory does not 	mislead me it was because he took his account back.
211.	*But I do remember getting it back because I then gave it to a 	friends little brother who got it banned for botting.
212.	Tyro says:
213.	*Chris, that means that you sold the account for another account 	twice and recovered it twice, then didn't try to resell it
214.	*Dark bought it in the SECOND thread
215.	Chris says:
216.	*Your first statement confused me.
217.	*yes I did swap it twice
218.	Tyro says:
219.	*(rubs eyes)
220.	Chris says:
221.	*neither swap was a permenant swap
222.	*(because they took their account back)
223.	Tyro says:
224.	*You recovered it twice.
225.	Chris says:
226.	*Am I not allowed to re-sell it if the other party scammed me?
227.	*(serious question)
228.	Tyro says:
229.	*This seems different than what I heard earlier.
230.	Chris says:
231.	*What did you hear?
232.	*I
233.	Tyro says:
234.	*You never mentioned recovering it twice
235.	Chris says:
236.	*I'm trying to be as honest as possible.
237.	Tyro says:
238.	*And now you remember it explicitly
239.	Chris says:
240.	*I only remember the second one
241.	*I remember my trade with dark
242.	Tyro says:
243.	*You couldn't remember any details of the trade
244.	Chris says:
245.	*He xfered me 33m in BH
246.	*On the first thread
247.	*it says both were sold
248.	*but no one posted buying
249.	*let me double check
250.	*hold on
251.	Tyro says:
252.	*You now remember selling it the first time, recovering it, 	selling it to Darkspirith, recovering it, then giving it to a 	friend who got it banned for botting
253.	Chris says:
254.	*no
255.	*Story of in the arena:
256.	*first thread
257.	*I do not remember who i sold it to
258.	*or for what
259.	*(but I'm highly positive it was a swap)
260.	Tyro says:
261.	*But you remember recovering it?
262.	Chris says:
263.	*No
264.	*I remember having it
265.	*for the second thread tho
266.	*so I must have recovered it at some point
267.	*Everyone on the first thread is banned for scamming
268.	*So my best judgement tells me they scammed me which is what lead 	me to recovering it
269.	*Then the second trade
270.	*I remember dark because we attempted to xfer 30m through BH
271.	*And I do not remember the acc
272.	*that we swapped for
273.	*+him being banned also leads me to believe that he scammed it 	back
274.	*I'm trying to be as helpful as possible.  I've worked too hard on 	sythe the last 3 months to throw it all away for a 2 year 	old...fuck up at most?
275.	Tyro says:
276.	*I don't see how you can't remember the trade details or whether 	or not you were scammed, but remember exactly what you did with 	the account after recovering it the second time.
277.	Chris says:
278.	*Because I gave it to my best friend who i currently share 	accounts with and his little brother
279.	*My best friend on scape (xx j m g xx) quit scape a while ago and 	gave me his account
280.	*when he came back
281.	*he said his brother needed an acc
282.	*and asked if I had any laying around
283.	*I had this one and gave it to him
284.	*he suicided free bots
285.	*+I do not remember the swaps because odds are I did not own the 	account for very long
286.	Tyro says:
287.	*We know you did something, Chris. Now's your chance to admit to 	it and still have your application considered. Two years is more 	than enough time for someone to change, and we know that.
288.	Chris says:
289.	*Tyro I'm trying
290.	*I honestly am
291.	*the ONLY thing I remember
292.	*is xfering the 30m through BH
293.	Tyro says:
294.	*This isn't the only incident...
295.	*Just tell me
296.	*and be completely honest -- now's your chance
297.	*have you scammed before?
298.	*Everyone makes mistakes
299.	*even staff members
300.	*and we're willing to forgive you
301.	Chris says:
302.	*Alright, the first trade I don't remember.  The second trade I 	remember
303.	Tyro says:
304.	*IF you admit to it
305.	Chris says:
306.	*He gave me 30m through BH
307.	*I remember taking the account back after that
308.	*I do not remember his acc at all
309.	*I did scam darkspirith
310.	*It was two years ago... :x 

Ok, so the whole thing was Tyro found a trade from two years ago between me and Darkspirith. In this trade I was giving him my pure for 33m and an account.

Darkspirith profile: http://sythe.org/member.php?u=77282

The thread: http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=517717

My conversation with Tyro consisted of him asking me about the trade and if I remember scamming him etc.

Here are the important points in the logs:

lines 175-176
I say that I do not have anything about the trade saved but I have not scammed anyone on Sythe (or any other site).

Line 182
He gives me my first chance to admit to scamming (He says he knows I've taken the account back and heres my chance to admit it).

Lines 210-211
I respond saying I did in fact recover mine but if my memory does not mislead me it was because he took his account back first (I never remember playing his account so I must have owned it a very short time).

Lines 270-273
I once again say that I remember taking my account back but if I remember correctly he took his account back first.

Line 287
He gives me a second chance to admit it and I tell him the same thing as the other times

Line 296
He gives me a third chance to admit it claiming now is my last chance and I might be let go/pardoned. He also says "we are willing to forgive you"

Line 307
This is where I mistakenly admit to scamming darkspirith. I admitted to scamming him because I was under the impression that Tyro had more evidence than me about this trade. I thought that he had solid proof I scammed him and that if I admitted it I would be forgiven and given a second chance since he clearly states "and we're willing to forgive you, IF you admit to it"

Those are the chat logs be analyzed. In the chat I said I believe he took his account back first three times. The repetition of the question also lead me to believe that he knew I scammed and was waiting for me to say I scammed him before he was satisfied.

Ok so I realized that even with me analyzing the chat logs this will not be enough. I went through every post/topic I could find about darkspirith on Sythe. I decided that since I am making the case that it was him that scammed me I need to find proof that he has done so before I make these accusations.

On the thread selling the account (http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=517717) he says
"I need to know if you'll do trade with me... I can't wait any longer."
Most people who are experienced with the market know that most people that are in a hurry/desperate usually are just trying to get a quick scam (lure the seller/buyer in with the statement that they have to leave soon).

Also I found three scammer reports found on Darkspirith, some of them did not have sufficient evidence to get him banned but one did.

The first thread I found was him scamming someones stuff on their RS account:
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=333343

There was no proof provided but this is one person publicly calling him a scammer.

The second thread I found was him re-selling another guide:

http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=317028

This had some proof but I guess it was not enough at the time for a ban.

The third thread is him actually being caught with enough proof for a ban:

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=716777

Here he was finally caught and gets a ban from sin666.

Those are three threads I found where darkspirith was publicly called a scammer. Also if I scammed darkspirith, then why did he not make a scammer report? I remember at the time I was a leecher (or a member) and he was a guru (the reason I decided to trade with him). He obviously had experience with Sythe so why was there never a scammer report submitted?

I would really appreciate if thoughts/ideas are posted here instead of the Staff lounge so I can try to clarify anything and defend myself.

 

It most probably had a name change.

 

Name is dsasadsadsa

 

If you weren't in the wrong, why would you be afraid? If you hadn't scammed him, why would you think that Tyro had some sort of proof that could get you banned? It seems like you're using our lack of proof to your advantage...

 

I was afraid because my memory did not remember the details of the trade. I used this example to explain to Tyro over msn:

If you are a blackout drunk you wake up not remembering anything from the night before. A few days later you have cops questioning you saying you murdered someone and they have proof. If you admit to it they will let you get off easier than if you deny it.

When I admitted it I was just trying to avoid a ban hammer any way I could.

 

You could also have avoided the ban hammer by not doing anything to get it...

 

I wouldn't say lack of proof, I'd say lack of memory. In the chat logs, he's basically making himself sound like he can't remember a thing, while if you're trying to sell the account more than once (which seems like he did) you'd remember a bit more. It doesn't seem like a very convincing story to me.

 

The account was not sold twice. The first trade was never completed (Hence no offers nor vouches). I said both were sold because I wanted to train them up and attempt to sell them for higher. (the second topic).

 

I vote for unban with TWC since there's no hard proof of any of this ever happening.

 

I agree with this.

This was 2 years ago, I'm not surprised his memory was a bit hazy. I don't think we should jump to conclusions and immediately brand him as a scammer. I believe he felt cornered and his confession was out of desperation.

 

I still think he deserves a permanent ban; he admitted to scamming two users. I don't see how you can forget something like that, and saying that because you "forgot what happened" shows me that you think of yourself as a scammer.

 

Sorry, you will remain banned.